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    foszoe

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    Are you suggesting Trump is responsible for January 6th?
    Responsible is a broad term.

    Was he criminally Responsible? No
    Was he irresponsible? Yes
    Did he live up to Matt 26:52? No
    Did his actions and those of his subordinates contribute to the events of Jan 6th? Yes.

    Does that mean he's Responsible?
     

    Tombs

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    Not trying to equate the two. Just saying wrong is wrong.

    When it come to Trump or anyone else, I believe that when you are the CEO the buck stops with you. If you have people working for you/on your behalf calling for violence, it isn't enough that you aren't calling for violence, you should also condemn those on the payroll.

    But it doesn't have to rise to a violent level to be wrong.

    I also feel as though there should be a distinction between something being morally wrong and something being illegal.

    The self defense laws in this state will allow you to do some fairly immoral things but still be within the confines of the law.
     

    LeftyGunner

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    How can you possibly know what Trump knows? You cannot possibly know what Trump knows.

    You’re right, Trump very well may lack the cognitive ability to understand that his followers will act against the people he targets, but that doesn‘t change the effect…it still appears to amount to witness tampering to the court.
     

    jamil

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    Gtown-ish
    Well, no…not really.

    Leave aside the dog whistles and mesmerized minions for a moment…I’m not sure if you are going for snark and drifting off into hyperbole or if you are looking for a sincere reply.

    Trump doesn’t have to speak in code or use dog whistles, he already knows there is a cadre within his supporters that will engage in criminal activity on his behalf. Trump only has to direct their attention to his desired target and let the zealotry of his most fervent supports run its natural course.

    The Judge in his DC trial understands the intimidation potential Trump’s followers have against witnesses, that’s why she made it clear in her orders that calling out witnesses publicly could be seen as witness tampering and result in pre-trial penalties for Trump.
    Well no. I’m not being snarky.

    Before I buy what you’re saying, that Trump is actually calling on his cadre to take care of it, I’d like something more than your word for it. But anyway I don’t know how that’s much different than stochastic terrorism though.
     

    LeftyGunner

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    What about the glowies in the crowd that instigated and encouraged bad behaviour?

    Stat check: intellect.

    Plenty of protestors were smart enough not to fall for instigators and rabble-rousers and stayed outside the police line that day.

    If you aren’t smart enough to make it through a protest without becoming a patsy you probably ought to avoid DC altogether.
     

    DragonGunner

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    Responsible is a broad term.

    Was he criminally Responsible? No
    Was he irresponsible? Yes
    Did he live up to Matt 26:52? No
    Did his actions and those of his subordinates contribute to the events of Jan 6th? Yes.

    Does that mean he's Responsible?
    Good grief…. He wanted NG there and Pelosi said no. The FBI did as much as possiable to encourage it, they still won’t say how many fbi were there. The police opened doors and invited them in, gave tours. The media refused to play the part where Trump said to be peaceful and no violence. You’re blind as a bat. And apparently willfully.
     

    foszoe

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    Good grief…. He wanted NG there and Pelosi said no. The FBI did as much as possiable to encourage it, they still won’t say how many fbi were there. The police opened doors and invited them in, gave tours. The media refused to play the part where Trump said to be peaceful and no violence. You’re blind as a bat. And apparently willfully.
    Thank you for your insights
     

    jamil

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    Yes.

    He called his supporters to DC on that day, he worked them into a fervor at the ellipse, and he directed that fervor toward the Capitol.

    Without Trump‘s direct involvement at several steps along the way Jan 6th would have been just another day in DC.
    That’s an opinion.
     

    jamil

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    Gtown-ish
    Responsible is a broad term.

    Was he criminally Responsible? No
    Was he irresponsible? Yes
    Did he live up to Matt 26:52? No
    Did his actions and those of his subordinates contribute to the events of Jan 6th? Yes.

    Does that mean he's Responsible?
    So then to the extent that Trump is responsible, could the people who got violent On J6 shift the blame to Trump?
     

    jamil

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    Gtown-ish
    Stat check: intellect.

    Plenty of protestors were smart enough not to fall for instigators and rabble-rousers and stayed outside the police line that day.

    If you aren’t smart enough to make it through a protest without becoming a patsy you probably ought to avoid DC altogether.
    But then what responsibility does Trump have if you’re giving the instigators a pass. Didn’t you just say that Trump instigated it? Why is he any more responsible than the “glowies”?

    I’m not familiar with that term. WTF is a glowie?
     

    Twangbanger

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    Yes.

    He called his supporters to DC on that day, he worked them into a fervor at the ellipse, and he directed that fervor toward the Capitol.

    Without Trump‘s direct involvement at several steps along the way Jan 6th would have been just another day in DC.
    If Kyle Rittenhouse had stayed home from Kenosha, those thugs would still be alive. But that doesn't mean he's criminally responsible for their death.

    Liberals like to blame xxxx on Conservatives getting out of bed in the morning. S'okay. I get it. But it's intellectually lazy.
     

    jamil

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    Gtown-ish
    If Kyle Rittenhouse had stayed home from Kenosha, those thugs would still be alive, but that doesn't mean he's responsible.

    Liberals like to blame xxxx on Conservatives getting out of bed in the morning. It's okay. I get it. But it's intellectually lazy.
    Instigators in the crowd actually egging people on to go into the Capitol, get violent, etcetera, nope. They’re not responsible because the people should have known better. But Trump is responsible because he signaled the Trumpers with his secret language to do violence on his behalf. So basically, when he tells people to “protest peacefully” they knew that means violently. And stay between the ropes when you take your own unguided unsanctioned trespassing tour of the Capitol.
     

    LeftyGunner

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    Well no. I’m not being snarky.

    Before I buy what you’re saying, that Trump is actually calling on his cadre to take care of it, I’d like something more than your word for it. But anyway I don’t know how that’s much different than stochastic terrorism though.

    That’s fair, I don’t expect you to take my word for anything.

    Personally, I think it’s self-evident that a some percentage of Trump’s supporters would act against Trump’s accusers whether or not he overtly orders them to. We have seen countless examples thus far, with Jan6 being the most obvious…and most worrisome…example.
     

    jamil

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    That’s fair, I don’t expect you to take my word for anything.

    Personally, I think it’s self-evident that a some percentage of Trump’s supporters would act against Trump’s accusers whether or not he overtly orders them to. We have seen countless examples thus far, with Jan6 being the most obvious…and most worrisome…example.
    But you just say it. You really don’t even make a case for it. And you said you think it’s self evident. If it’s self evident, could it be that it’s bias rather than something rational? If it’s self evident, isn’t it just instinct telling you it’s true? Instinct works exactly like bias. And what this kind of instinct is, is nurture. It’s basically your world view. How accurate is that?
     

    LeftyGunner

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    Instigators in the crowd actually egging people on to go into the Capitol, get violent, etcetera, nope. They’re not responsible because the people should have known better. But Trump is responsible because he signaled the Trumpers with his secret language to do violence on his behalf. So basically, when he tells people to “protest peacefully” they knew that means violently. And stay between the ropes when you take your own unguided unsanctioned trespassing tour of the Capitol.

    Hold on there…I didn’t say the instigators (even any potential agent provocateurs) should not be held accountable for their role in motivating the crowd…I said the crowd shouldn’t have fallen for the instigator’s tactics.

    I have no idea what a “glowie” is either...but that’s nothing new, INGO lingo often escapes me, lol.
     
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