Training is too expensive

[U.S. Patriot]

I want someone to train me in my living room so I don't have to get off my couch. For free. And provide unlimited ammo.

The class can only be 5 minutes long so we can do it over a commercial break and I won't miss any of my TV show.

 

[jeremy]

 

[VERT]

I hope Shay will weigh in on this thought because he will be much more insightful.

I noticed some talk about the cost of ammo, or other fees, along with the discussion about the cost of training classes. In my mind there is a difference between "training" and "practice". Both take time and money. I see training as an opportunity to introduce, learn, reinforce or further develop skills and ideas. This pretty much requires an environment where a person is working with an instructor. The training environment may even include other students. Through interaction among instructors/students learning takes place. Practice on the other hand allows a person to improve upon already learned techniques or to preserve perishable skills. Both of these are important. No reason to train if we can't practice.

As an example I paid an instructor, Max Bedwell, to help me with my shooting technique. Now understand that I already know how to shoot. We moved quickly through the basics as he evaluated where my skill level was. Then he worked with me and introduced new ideas how to improve upon areas in which I struggled. That was Training and it was worth the money I paid to have an expert such as Max share his knowledge. Yesterday I shot in my first USPSA match since 2007. I tried to remember some of the things that Max told me. I was applying what I learned. That was Practice.

 

[U.S. Patriot]

I hope Shay will weigh in on this thought because he will be much more insightful.

I noticed some talk about the cost of ammo, or other fees, along with the discussion about the cost of training classes. In my mind there is a difference between "training" and "practice". Both take time and money. I see training as an opportunity to introduce, learn, reinforce or further develop skills and ideas. This pretty much requires an environment where a person is working with an instructor. The training environment may even include other students. Through interaction among instructors/students learning takes place. Practice on the other hand allows a person to improve upon already learned techniques or to preserve perishable skills. Both of these are important. No reason to train if we can't practice.

As an example I paid an instructor, Max Bedwell, to help me with my shooting technique. Now understand that I already know how to shoot. We moved quickly through the basics as he evaluated where my skill level was. Then he worked with me and introduced new ideas how to improve upon areas in which I struggled. That was Training and it was worth the money I paid to have an expert such as Max share his knowledge. Yesterday I shot in my first USPSA match since 2007. I tried to remember some of the things that Max told me. I was applying what I learned. That was Practice.

I disgaree on one point. I do not think you need an instructor present to train.

 

[iChokePeople]

I disgaree on one point. I do not think you need an instructor present to train.

Semantics argument, IMHO. This one will never end. I'd submit, though, that unless you're doing everything perfectly, no bad habits, no areas to improve other than just adding reps, you'd get more improvement out of 200 rounds and 2 hours with a good instructor than out of 2 years and 5k rounds of what you're doing. Note that the "you" in this case is not *you*, but most of us, including me.

I recently took a course with cedartop. Two days, dunno how many rounds (not more than 500, I think), and I absolutely, without question, got more improvement and value from that than I would have from an equivalent amount (in terms of cost) of "training"/practice without him (or an equally good instructor). Same for a class I took with John Viray not long before that. If you can't say that after a class, you picked the wrong class or the wrong instructor. THAT, IMHO, is why training is worth my time and money -- I'll improve more, faster than I would on my own. And on the off chance that I don't happen to know EVERYTHING about a particular subject, I might even be exposed to some new ideas, new ways of thinking, new ways of addressing a problem, etc.

 

[jeremy]

jeremy, maybe you have said before, but what would that be?

Squad/Platoon/Company TTP's.

I am not done playing at Soldier yet, and that is a more realistically dangerous area for me...

Have you found anyone closer than North Carolina?!

 

[VERT]

I disgaree on one point. I do not think you need an instructor present to train.

I suppose. There are some good videos and such on the market. From a lecture standpoint these would be just as good or better then a classroom presentation. What is missing is the interaction between students and/or instructor. For me personally that is what I am seeking and how I learn. But if resources are limited I can understand why a person might seek knowledge on their own and then practice accordingly.

There are some things where I don't think this method would ever work. That is FoF or other activity to introduce stress. Hard to be stressed if there is not some type of outside stimulus. For example in the NRA class you mentioned, people had to shoot in front of the group with an instructor right behind or near them. Not stressful for an experienced shooter or one with some military training such as yourself. But I can tell you several people in the class were a nervous wreck.

 

[Rob377]

It's great that you think that. And I'm happy that you're interested in training with me.

But I really am interested in the (lack of) perceived value of training. New guns have a very high perceived value. There always seems to be money for new guns.

There have been a few times on INGO recently where someone has stated that training is too expensive and that instructors should give classes for free. I see no such calls for guns to be free. Or ammo to be free. Or Aimpoints or Pmags or any other tangible item. Training has a low perceived value for most gun owners.

It's worth noting that the survey is going to be skewed because this is posted in the Tactics and Training section so there is at least some interest in training from the people who frequent here.

With a new piece of hardware, you know what you're getting. With training, in an industry full of tactical snake oil salesmen, that's not always the case.

Paying for hard goods vs. paying for an opinion that may or may not be any good, the latter will just about always incur a risk discount.

 

[U.S. Patriot]

Semantics argument, IMHO. This one will never end. I'd submit, though, that unless you're doing everything perfectly, no bad habits, no areas to improve other than just adding reps, you'd get more improvement out of 200 rounds and 2 hours with a good instructor than out of 2 years and 5k rounds of what you're doing. Note that the "you" in this case is not *you*, but most of us, including me.

I recently took a course with cedartop. Two days, dunno how many rounds (not more than 500, I think), and I absolutely, without question, got more improvement and value from that than I would have from an equivalent amount (in terms of cost) of "training"/practice without him (or an equally good instructor). Same for a class I took with John Viray not long before that. If you can't say that after a class, you picked the wrong class or the wrong instructor. THAT, IMHO, is why training is worth my time and money -- I'll improve more, faster than I would on my own. And on the off chance that I don't happen to know EVERYTHING about a particular subject, I might even be exposed to some new ideas, new ways of thinking, new ways of addressing a problem, etc.

Let me try to clear up what I'm trying to say. I'm not against training, I have done a ton of training, the vast majority being Military. Training introduces new techniques, etc. You have someone there to help and guide you. Once you learn those skills, it's up to you to hone them. Practice involves repetition. If you want to practice reloading, you reload until it becomes second nature and you don't have to think about it. Training involves executing more than one task, trying different techniques, shooting positions, etc. You take the basics and continue to add onto them. It's like a building, you have to start with a foundation.

I took an NRA class with Vert just recently. It was a basic class, but I still learned something. That's why I also train with the guys in the run and gun project, as it's training. You are executing multiple tasks, not just working on one skill. You are timed as well, which for me, forces myself to push harder on every run. IE: run faster to get to cover, reload faster, engage targets faster, etc. Is it not training because I do not have an instructor there, no. I will watch the video countless times, and see where I need to improve. IE: I was slow on my reload at point X, I was slow to engage my target at point X, etc. Then I take that and work to improve the next time.

Just because we may disagree does not make either of us right or wrong. Training is not a one way street that has a set of limitations that must be followed to a T. There is more than one path to get where you want to be. The point is to push yourself and improve.

 

[groovatron]

You can most certainly train by your lonesome. Having an extra set of competent eyes is invaluable though.

 

[rhino]

With a new piece of hardware, you know what you're getting. With training, in an industry full of tactical snake oil salesmen, that's not always the case.

Paying for hard goods vs. paying for an opinion that may or may not be any good, the latter will just about always incur a risk discount.

That's an often overlooked fact. Thank you for reminding us, sir.

 

[Shay]

With a new piece of hardware, you know what you're getting. With training, in an industry full of tactical snake oil salesmen, that's not always the case.

Paying for hard goods vs. paying for an opinion that may or may not be any good, the latter will just about always incur a risk discount.

And yet most gun owners have a box or closet full of crap that they no longer use or that didn't work as expected/advertised.

 

[popsmoke]

Kinda depends if it's group training, or one on one...

Group size as well. I'd pay through the nose for one-on-one time with a reputable instructor. Or even a small group environment.

 

[Turf Doctor]

Training being too expensive.. Seems a s there are several folks that have more than one gun. Most of the guns I see are not cheap, anywhere from $300-$900, depending on what you are getting. Although, cheap is in the person talking. What is cheap to one is not to another.. I for one would like to gain more knowledge on how to handle myself and a firearm if a situation ever happens. Find a training course of interest, save some money and plan on going..

I would like to take a few training classes to futher what little I think I know. The wife and I did do a Basic Pistol class and came away with more than we went in.

Next training class??? Any suggestions?

Turf Doctor

 

[Shay]

I would like to take a few training classes to futher what little I think I know. The wife and I did do a Basic Pistol class and came away with more than we went in.

Next training class??? Any suggestions?

Turf Doctor

You should choose your school/instructor depending on what your focus is.

 

[cedartop]

And yet most gun owners have a box or closet full of crap that they no longer use or that didn't work as expected/advertised.

Yep, and every so often I try to sell that stuff to pay for more ammo or training.

 

[SERVED_USMC]

Yep, and every so often I try to sell that stuff to pay for more ammo or training.

Thats where Im at now. Just sold off about $600 worth of "junk" that I have had laying around for a while. Enough for 3K 9mm projectiles and my entire 1st line belt for my Costa Ludus class this spring!

 

[henktermaat]

And yet $500 guns don't seem too expensive.

Apples and oranges.

 

[Shay]

Apples and oranges.

Opportunity cost.

 

[the1kidd03]

Opportunity cost.

Assuming ALL gun owners put the same value on training as the gun itself. Sadly, that's not the case. A surprising majority of gun owners are so for reasons OTHER than defense I have found.

A small (and vague) demographic example here: https://www.indianagunowners.com/forums/general_firearms_discussion/231665-why_do_you_shoot.html

By this example over 60% primarily own firearms for reasons OTHER than defense.