Training is too expensive

[Shay]

So I just came off of two days of teaching some tough combatives classes. Today in between getting hit in the head with pistols a thought occurred to me. I see the same faces in classes fairly often. Those students start training and they just keep coming back. They train with me. They train with other schools. They're no richer than other gun owners. They don't have more free time. But they make training a priority.

They put their limited money and time into improving what THEY can do. Not just buying more guns and gadgets.

 

[amhenry]

Although we do sometimes buy gadgets. I picked up some sparring pads at Dick's on the way home. My wife and I will keep practicing.

 

[groovatron]

So I just came off of two days of teaching some tough combatives classes. Today in between getting hit in the head with pistols a thought occurred to me. I see the same faces in classes fairly often. Those students start training and they just keep coming back. They train with me. They train with other schools. They're no richer than other gun owners. They don't have more free time. But they make training a priority.

They put their limited money and time into improving what THEY can do. Not just buying more guns and gadgets.

Jeez man.........I think you have made your point in this thread.


Your stupid if you spend more on guns than training.
Your stupid if you don't make training a priority.
You have WAY more time than you claim to.
Driving long distances and spending the night in hotels should not be a factor.
You don't need to have a ton of money to train all the time......you just have to stop buying gear.
There is no way you don't have time for training.......everybody does.
You are lazy and you sit on a computer in your virtual gun community.


Did I miss anything?

 

[irishfan]

So I just came off of two days of teaching some tough combatives classes. Today in between getting hit in the head with pistols a thought occurred to me. I see the same faces in classes fairly often. Those students start training and they just keep coming back. They train with me. They train with other schools. They're no richer than other gun owners. They don't have more free time. But they make training a priority.

They put their limited money and time into improving what THEY can do. Not just buying more guns and gadgets.

Most gun shop owners love that we spend money there However, this year I am dedicating the vast majority of my budget to training.

 

[cardio1]

As a recent acolyte, I've taken 2 days of private instruction in handgun defense and one day of shotgun defense which had 8 other students.
Both methods work well and I learned a lot from both techniques. Any class just reminds one of how little one really knows!
The 100-200/day range makes sense unless ammo is provided IMHO

 

[Tydeeh22]

put it this way.. ill pay more for 1v1 training all day over being in a class of 8-15 people. 2 instructors have hard enough time taking care of, monitoring, and giving critique to my shooting. i need to know what I need to fix. not what the guy 2 lanes / targets down needs to fix. while it may not be as cost effective for the instructor that way, it would offer me a more personal and beneficial experience.

basically. 2 hours of 1v1 is = or > 8 hours of training in a classroom setting to me.

 

[Shay]

Jeez man.........I think you have made your point in this thread.


Your stupid if you spend more on guns than training.
Your stupid if you don't make training a priority.
You have WAY more time than you claim to.
Driving long distances and spending the night in hotels should not be a factor.
You don't need to have a ton of money to train all the time......you just have to stop buying gear.
There is no way you don't have time for training.......everybody does.
You are lazy and you sit on a computer in your virtual gun community.


Did I miss anything?

It looks like some of the things I have been saying have started to sink in. So, what training do you have scheduled in the next 6 months?

 

[lovemachine]

put it this way.. ill pay more for 1v1 training all day over being in a class of 8-15 people. 2 instructors have hard enough time taking care of, monitoring, and giving critique to my shooting. i need to know what I need to fix. not what the guy 2 lanes / targets down needs to fix. while it may not be as cost effective for the instructor that way, it would offer me a more personal and beneficial experience.

basically. 2 hours of 1v1 is = or > 8 hours of training in a classroom setting to me.

A good training class with good instructors will spread the love.

And it's also a good teaching moment being able to WATCH and OBERSERVE the other students while you reload and/or relax.

 

[Shay]

I'm not saying that it's the case with everyone, but I think many students want individual instruction not because they think they will learn more, but because they do not want to risk ego in front of other students.

I agree with lovemachine that there's real value in watching other students learn and picking up answers to questions you may not have asked.

 

[lovemachine]

I'm not saying that it's the case with everyone, but I think many students want individual instruction not because they think they will learn more, but because they do not want to risk ego in front of other students.

I agree with lovemachine that there's real value in watching other students learn and picking up answers to questions you may not have asked.

I'll agree to the ego thing. I've been tempted to get individual instruction with my marksmanship....it sucks big booty compared to the other guys I have trained with.

For me, I have been able to learn A LOT more by watching my fellow students. Plus they have asked questions that I would never have thought of.

 

[Delmar]

I didn't vote in the poll, but the only category I wouldn't vote in is "all training should be free" You don't have the right to someone else's time and talents! That being said I have worked with good trainers that work for very little, as a labor of love. It's not wrong to find the best deal you can.

 

[U.S. Patriot]

It looks like some of the things I have been saying have started to sink in. So, what training do you have scheduled in the next 6 months?

Why do you care so much? I know there are people that make excuses, but not everyone. You come off as, everyone that does not train is making excuses and has the time and money to do so. I call that arrogance.

 

[Que]

Why do you care so much? I know there are people that make excuses, but not everyone. You come off as, everyone that does not train is making excuses and has the time and money to do so. I call that arrogance.

Patriot, every single time I've met Shay face-to-face, he asked about training and it wasn't always about training with him. Personality doesn't always come across over typed words, but I would say it's more of a passion with Shay than arrogance. He believes there is a great benefit in holistic training, from eating right to carrying the right flashlight. Also, it's not all about the equipment with him, but knowing how to choose what's best for you and actually knowing how to use it. Only a VERY small percentage of gun owners actually understand how to utilize their weapon as a life-saving tool. It's good to have someone to remind us to include some kind of training to our wish list, with the new handgun, rifle or knife.

 

[SERVED_USMC]

Booked my first official class for 2013. Haley carbine 1 April 26-28. I figured it would be a nice birthday gift to myself.
$750 for 3 days. 1500 rounds (+ or - a few hundred) and a 3 1/2 drive from the house.
Really looking forward to it.

 

[groovatron]

It looks like some of the things I have been saying have started to sink in. So, what training do you have scheduled in the next 6 months?

Next 6 months? How but just today? I plan on playing a good session of COD and nourishing the body with frozen pizza and mt. dew. After a few hours of that, I'll probably suit up head to toe in chinese-made molle gear and mock body armor. Then I'll take a few mirror shots posing with one of my many dozen airsoft rifles. After a late lunch of halloween candy (I still trick or treat.....I'm only 20), I think I'll head to gamestop. There are no new games out that I haven't played, but I like to give people advice on what they should and shouldn't buy. When management finally tells me to leave, I'll practice some force on force....mostly a combination of kicking, screaming, and hair pulling. When I finally get home, I'll let off some steam on ARFcom and give valuable insight into the very best rifles and optics available on the market. After a few posts full of internet WIN, I'll have a good night cap of video games while watching Adult Swim. This type of multitasking late at night increases my situational awarness.

Phew.......what a day!

 

[Shay]

Next 6 months? How but just today? I plan on playing a good session of COD and nourishing the body with frozen pizza and mt. dew. After a few hours of that, I'll probably suit up head to toe in chinese-made molle gear and mock body armor. Then I'll take a few mirror shots posing with one of my many dozen airsoft rifles. After a late lunch of halloween candy (I still trick or treat.....I'm only 20), I think I'll head to gamestop. There are no new games out that I haven't played, but I like to give people advice on what they should and shouldn't buy. When management finally tells me to leave, I'll practice some force on force....mostly a combination of kicking, screaming, and hair pulling. When I finally get home, I'll let off some steam on ARFcom and give valuable insight into the very best rifles and optics available on the market. After a few posts full of internet WIN, I'll have a good night cap of video games while watching Adult Swim. This type of multitasking late at night increases my situational awarness.

Phew.......what a day!

The answer is 'none'.

 

[Shay]

Why do you care so much? I know there are people that make excuses, but not everyone. You come off as, everyone that does not train is making excuses and has the time and money to do so. I call that arrogance.

View it how you like.

The bottom line is that training matters for performance. I want people who carry guns for defense to have the highest probability of success in a violent confrontation.

You either make it a priority or you don't. I encourage gun owners to make it a priority.

The question is, "Why do you keep coming back to a thread in the TACTICS AND TRAINING section to tell me that I shouldn't tell people to prioritize training?"

 

[irishfan]

It looks like some of the things I have been saying have started to sink in. So, what training do you have scheduled in the next 6 months?

I haven't had anything sink in because I already knew what I wanted to accomplish this year as far as getting training. However, I do see why you are pushing people to better themselves but as you have seen it is a losing battle with the majority.

A class instructor recently put it quite well when describing the gun community. His comment "you all know the 300+ pound guy who says he doesn't need to be in shape because of his high end bolt rifle with a huge scope. He would get picked to death by a young kid with a 10/22 moving and shooting"

 

[Glock21]

put it this way.. ill pay more for 1v1 training all day over being in a class of 8-15 people. 2 instructors have hard enough time taking care of, monitoring, and giving critique to my shooting. i need to know what I need to fix. not what the guy 2 lanes / targets down needs to fix. while it may not be as cost effective for the instructor that way, it would offer me a more personal and beneficial experience.

basically. 2 hours of 1v1 is = or > 8 hours of training in a classroom setting to me.

I, personally, don't train Rockettes. There's probably 20% of the range time that I have students lined up together performing the same weapons manipulation, but for the most part, I train individual operators. Students run and gun under the supervison of myself and my Instructors, but they also spend time watching other students run the same drills. I think they learn volumes from watching others, and I think they benefit greatly from hearing different voices and receiving attention from multiple Instructors.

I teach private 1-on-1 classes, but I honestly think the student gets less for their money since they don't get to see others perform what they are being taught. Sure, I'll teach whenever and wherever a person is willing to pay me, but I always try to talk them into attending a class with other students if it's possible.

One doesn't just learn from the Instructors, one learns from the students, as well. It's part of the experience.

Granted, if you're attending a class where everyone stands there and does the same thing all day, I would understand how it could get boring. But, we run students through drills on their own with lots of personal attention. They actually need the time inbetween runs to re-charge magazines and catch their breath. They also get to see corrections made to other students movement and manipulations, and that helps vet those problems in their own routine before they step up to the line.

 

[obijohn]

Why do you care so much? I know there are people that make excuses, but not everyone. You come off as, everyone that does not train is making excuses and has the time and money to do so. I call that arrogance.

While it is common knowledge that Shay and I do not agree on certain things and his written word is a bit, short shall we say, but I have to agree with his passion about training. For me, it is not just about you, or anyone else, getting training, it is a selfish thing. I feel safer knowing that there are people around me that are trained. I'm not particularly comfortable with the tyro that bought his gun, a holster a box of ammo and is out on the street. His or her right, certainly, but not really a good idea.