Training is too expensive

[turnandshoot4]

OK, here is a challenge to all who are complaining about the cost of training;
Post up an inventory of all your firearms and related gear.

Pretty simple eh, just that. Let's do it.

An interesting point. The actual cost of the firearm is the tip of the iceburg. After holsters, mags, slings, mag pouches, vests, belts, and other misc gear it REALLY gets expensive!

 

[BravoMike]

Thanks for the advise! Feel free to start another thread if you like (and post us a link.) I'm good with hearing from the naysayers who are already invested in this thread.

Here ya go! No charge!

https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...g_costs_vs_cost_of_your_gear.html#post3459084

 

[rat-man]

You learned nothing? What is your experience? I have Military experience and have been shooting for some time. I took the PPITH NRA class offered by Vert. Which is a basic class. I walked away with new found knowledge about myself. Static range shooting will undo most of any real training you have had over time. I know this from first hand experience. Maybe you where too close minded when you took the class.

I didn't say I learned NOTHING, but what I did learn was more about passing a written test required for the CCW application, which I could have honestly passed easily with what I knew walking through the door in the morning. Keep in mind the course I took is the very bottom basement - the kind marketed to people who have never even read about firearms or ownership, let alone fire them. I wouldn't say it was a complete waste of money, but for that money, I didn't walk out with a head full of new-to-me knowledge.

 

[rat-man]

What were the specifics that you did not like? What was missing?

It wasn't really disliking anything other than I would have much rather been given the option to take the test upon arrival, and if passing and showing operation proficiency at the range portion, get the rubber stamp for the application, which is what I was really after. I didn't go into it expecting to walk out going "wow I never knew all this stuff, I was a dope not to do this earlier," but I also didn't expect to know everything they were going to tell me.

It's fine, I got what I wanted, but it would have been better if I had been given the option to "test out" for 1/2 price.

 

[Coach]

It wasn't really disliking anything other than I would have much rather been given the option to take the test upon arrival, and if passing and showing operation proficiency at the range portion, get the rubber stamp for the application, which is what I was really after. I didn't go into it expecting to walk out going "wow I never knew all this stuff, I was a dope not to do this earlier," but I also didn't expect to know everything they were going to tell me.

It's fine, I got what I wanted, but it would have been better if I had been given the option to "test out" for 1/2 price.

I see. Thanks.

 

[iChokePeople]

It wasn't really disliking anything other than I would have much rather been given the option to take the test upon arrival, and if passing and showing operation proficiency at the range portion, get the rubber stamp for the application, which is what I was really after. I didn't go into it expecting to walk out going "wow I never knew all this stuff, I was a dope not to do this earlier," but I also didn't expect to know everything they were going to tell me.

It's fine, I got what I wanted, but it would have been better if I had been given the option to "test out" for 1/2 price.

I would submit that you neither signed up nor attended with the intention of learning anything, just from your description. You wanted to check a box, you found a course that was either cheap, convenient, or easy, or some combination of them, and went there with the intent of checking the box as quickly as possible. I'm sure there's a market for that, but I don't think it's really the audience the trainers here are trying to get. It would be interesting to hear a review on that class from someone who went there with more of an open, eager mind wanting to learn something.

 

[jeremy]

OK, here is a challenge to all who are complaining about the cost of training;
Post up an inventory of all your firearms and related gear.

Pretty simple eh, just that. Let's do it.

I'll play....
Although, to be honest, I am not complaining about the expense of training. More so, the lack of training in the fields I desire outside of Government Training Facilities....

I will not bore you with any inventory list however. I easily have over $30,000 in gear alone. That is not Firearms, nor Equipment. I probably have another $2,000 in Firearms.

 

[BravoMike]

I'll play....
Although, to be honest, I am not complaining about the expense of training. More so, the lack of training in the fields I desire outside of Government Training Facilities....

I will not bore you with any inventory list however. I easily have over $30,000 in gear alone. That is not Firearms, nor Equipment. I probably have another $2,000 in Firearms.

Hop over to the other thread as well!

 

[BravoMike]

I guess I should add something worth while here since I posted.

I didn't put anything on the poll because it really depends on the type of training being offered. How long and what type of material is being covered. Also, the word expensive is so subjective. If you make $20k or $120k, the cost of anything will have a different meaning to you. Quite honestly, I think the cost of both guns and training is expensive on their own, now combine the two and it gets really expensive. I think the point here is the value of training and I think that's where bwframe hit the nail on the head. When one says they don't get training because it is too expensive, yet go out and buy thousands of dollars worth of guns, they don't see much value in training. This isn't a slam on the folks that do that, its just that they have a different mindset. After all, I think that is a part of what training is, a mindset.

 

[VERT]

Money - is and will always be an issue. Not so much actually spending the money because I can always make more of that, but rather convincing Mrs. VERT that spending the money is a good investment. Now before anybody judges the Mrs. she is cool, even supportive of my training and spending habits. But she does keep me realistic. Still money is not the the major issue for me.

As far as the amount of gear I own. I will pop over to BravoMike's thread.

Time - yes training is and should be a priority. But a bigger priority is my job, my family, cub scouts, karate tests, etc, etc. For example I have been wanting to take Shay's FoF class for some time now. It is at the top of my bucket list. Even mentioned it to Shay and BravoMike. Mrs. VERT agreed, money has been set aside, but I had not yet signed up for the course. Couple of days ago I see the invitations for the company Christmas party getting made up on my printer. (I have a commercial color printer in my cubical.) Guess when? December 1st. Guess what? I will be expected to be there! Another example, I am signed up for a training class the end of November in Ohio. Sold a gun to pay for it, OKed the vacation with the boss. My mother in law will have to watch the kids while I am gone because my wife leaves for work before they leave for school. My Father in Law may have some medical problems and depending on what his test results say they may not be able to watch the kids. No sitter, no class. "Remember Whats Important" and my Father in Law is more important then my taking a class.

 

[Double T]

Depends on class size.

 

[Shay]

I disagree with your concept of training. I realize new things everytime I "practice." The camera, other shooters etc. Etc. Teach me new things every time I "practice." There is a level of self awareness to this, you have to listen to what others are telling you.

If "training" is out of your comfort zone then I would assume you mean outside of the home with videos. Realistically this is what MOST can afford. $40 for a dvd, range fee, and ammo wipes out their gun budget. To train with the big names is big money. Their experience and teaching style is what I want, but it is cost prohibitive to do. Would I learn more with 1.5k of ammo on my own? For now, I say yes. I can work basic moving and shooting, reloads, sight alignment, draw, transitions, etc. Etc. You bring something others can't, Shay. I can't shoot at other people with something other than a retarted paintball gun. This is why I feel your training holds merits over any carbine 1,2, handgun 1,2 class out there. I can work those drills on my own. I refuse to pay hundreds of dollars for "that one nugget" that I might get from a class.

What the training guys can't wrap their head around is most gun owners DON'T WANT TO TRAIN. It isn't a money, time, or anything else issue. They don't care. Don't believe me? Go to a section here titled "classifieds" and see who the majority of gun owners are.

I don't disagree that my training is different. But I do think that having a professional instructor teach, correct and coach you will drastically shorten the learning curve. Many things that I have been taught in classes are not things I would have come to on my own.

I'm not trying to call you out. I'm genuinely curious. How many classes have you taken?

 

[WestSider]

Just like anything else, it's worth what people will pay for it I guess. I have recently been thinking about taking some training much more as I feel it certainly prepares you better to react.

 

[iChokePeople]

Just like anything else, it's worth what people will pay for it I guess. I have recently been thinking about taking some training much more as I feel it certainly prepares you better to react.

With many things I think that "worth what people will pay for it" saying can apply pretty well. I don't think that's the case with training. The COST may be limited by what people are willing to pay, but it can be worth MUCH more. Or, in some cases, it can be somewhere south of worthless and into harmful.

 

[cedartop]

That isnt true. They are getting rich off of it. Where do all these SBR's, Class 3 items come from?

10 person class at 150 a pop is 1500 dollars, 1500 and 5 days of work is? 7500 dollars a week. Or make it a 5 person class. Tell me again how 7500 or 3500 a week isnt getting rich? As a full time EMT I didnt even make that kind of money.

SO Lets say a business has expenses. 1000 a month for cheap building "rent", 500 a month in utilites, 100 bucks in paper targets.

Total expense's $1600 a month. Total revenue $12400 Factor in an instructor hiring in a couple mediocre lackeys to change targets and empty the trash call that 2k a month in wages..

$10,000 take home a month

Man thats a tidy bit of pocket change I need to get into that racket.

Wow, I need you as my business manager. I sure can't get the numbers to work out that way. The wife would be awfully happy if I could. At least the loss on my business helps at tax time.

Frankly I don't know how Shay can have put so much money into his recent upgrade, and still charge so little for his classes. Independently wealthy?

 

[R3l0@d3r]

I attended a training course with Paul Howe down in Texas, combatshootingandtactics.com. A birthday present from my wife.

I have attended training provided by others including law enforcement firearms instructors, but I keep coming back to the knowledge that I took away from Paul's course. Having an experienced operator like Paul work with and critic me absolutely led to improvements in my shooting abilities. I took Paul's handgun course probably five years ago and when I go to the range today, I work on his drills. Drills which continue to keep me proficient.

For training from the Paul Howe's, Larry Vickers, etc., I'd expect to pay premium prices. But as someone else stated, it is also about time. If I can pay for that level of experience to train me and correct my shortcomings, then I'm probably coming out ahead on time. They have 'been there, done that', and can quickly provide feedback that I may not have ever come to realize on my own. Paul was a Delta Operator for most of his 20+ years in service. He has spent more time on the range and down range, fine tuning his skills, than most gun owners, law enforcement and other courageous service members. That is the type of guy/gal that I want to train me.

I didn't feel like I came away from Paul's training with a 'nugget', it was a boulder.

When I consider training it is:
1) quality of instruction
2) experience and credibility of the instructor
3) real life or street applications
4) facilities/location
5) cost
6) time

 

[JBishop]

Wow, I need you as my business manager. I sure can't get the numbers to work out that way. The wife would be awfully happy if I could. At least the loss on my business helps at tax time.

Frankly I don't know how Shay can have put so much money into his recent upgrade, and still charge so little for his classes. Independently wealthy?

I want to know what instructor is able to get 10 students 5 days a week consistently? I know there are classes that instructors lose money to teach. Apparently things like fees/liability insurance/advertising/lodging and gas/etc must get overlooked.
Then there's opportunity costs (you could work overtime at your primary job instead of teaching the class with one student).

Less than 1% of instructors are big time-full time. The other 99+% have to work a primary job just like everyone else, then use their weekends to teach.

The good instructors know they'll never get rich teaching; they do it because they believe in what they do. Every once in a blue moon, one may grow to a success, but it's rare.

This is like saying that everyone that plays in a band is a rockstar millionaire

 

[U.S. Patriot]

I figured it up. By the time I paid for a $300 class, ammo, gas, lodging, food. I would basically not be able to reload for an entire year or more. So, do I spend that money on one class. Or actually have money to reload and shoot often. My priority is reload. So yes, money is a major factor. I'm limited on time as well because of school.

 

[JBishop]

I figured it up. By the time I paid for a $300 class, ammo, gas, lodging, food. I would basically not be able to reload for an entire year or more. So, do I spend that money on one class. Or actually have money to reload and shoot often. My priority is reload. So yes, money is a major factor. I'm limited on time as well because of school.

This is not aimed to start a fight, but to follow this logic:
Think about how much you'd save if you just stayed at home and trained by playing Call of Duty?

It's also like saying that a Sniper is lesser trained than a Machine Gunner because he shoots less bullets.

I've seen way too many people just sling their reloads downrange and call it training. The quality of training will make up for the quantity of ammo. I realize money is tight, but invest in training, you'll gain dividends in your skill faster than the investment in reloads.

 

[Shay]

I spent 5 hours today installing a CCTV system in Pleasantville. I didn't get paid by 10 students to do it. I must be doing something wrong.