This scares the hell out of me (LEO attitudes toward CCW)

[Paul]

Why should you be disarmed during a stop? Should you also be disarmed when you go into McDonalds and cops are in there eating? You could also shoot a cop there....give me a break

 

[Yamaha]

Why should you be disarmed during a stop? Should you also be disarmed when you go into McDonalds and cops are in there eating? You could also shoot a cop there....give me a break

I thought it was funny, I was getting a drink out of the cooler at a gas station and my shirt pulled up a bit revealing my g17 in my fobus, an officer I was talking to asked if I had a permit, I said yes, he just said right on and proceeded to ask what model, how I liked it, etc. We talked for another 30 minutes and he gave me a few tips on the glocks that I thought were helpful to know(additional oiling points)
He said he was a bit nervous at first, but after talking with me a bit he said he did feel safer to have some civilians out there carrying. Most store owners and other people just see a glock, so they instantly assume I am an officer already, so they usually don't say any more. I've also had to insist about paying for a few fountain drinks as well.....

 

[epsylum]

Yes, it is.

Okay. Then maybe I am just reading your last post wrong. That isn't the first time that has happened.

 

[epsylum]

Maybe a watch with a second hand measuring the time to cover a certain distance? When did watches get second-hands?

I still think it was by what the horse is doing. Full gallop in the city = speeding. One can easily tell the difference between walking, jogging, and running, even with horses.

 

[Annie Oakley]

Okay. Then maybe I am just reading your last post wrong. That isn't the first time that has happened.

See IC 35-42-2-4. As long as you are doing the posted speed limit you can not be cited. The speed limits are set by the State or Local Municipalities therefore, an officer cannot supercede those statutes and ticket you for doing the posted speed. That would be exceeding his authority and if you were ticketed and took it to court it would be thrown out. It is a misdeamor to obstruct traffic which is a greater charge than an infraction. Now, do all cops bother to really know their traffic law? No, but if you have doubts about what they tell you it can be checked out in the Indiana Criminal and Traffic Law Manual. Hope that helps.

 

[epsylum]

See IC 35-42-2-4. As long as you are doing the posted speed limit you can not be cited. The speed limits are set by the State or Local Municipalities therefore, an officer cannot supercede those statutes and ticket you for doing the posted speed. That would be exceeding his authority and if you were ticketed and took it to court it would be thrown out. It is a misdeamor to obstruct traffic which is a greater charge than an infraction. Now, do all cops bother to really know their traffic law? No, but if you have doubts about what they tell you it can be checked out in the Indiana Criminal and Traffic Law Manual. Hope that helps.

Yes it does. Thanks.

 

[4sarge]

I'm a retired officer with over 30 years of work and people experience behind me. That does not make me an expert (or correct) by any means but I will express my opinion on this topic. I could be your very best friend or the biggest dick that you ever wanted to meet. It all depends upon the circumstances and attitude (yours and mine) There are people who should not be police officers but there are also people who shouldn't exist on the planet.

Nothing is normal in police work. Every situation requires a fluid response by the officer because every situation is different. The law is not black and white and has varying shades of gray in the interpretation. Normal police are not robots and usually have both good and bad attitudes. Attitude displayed by the officer and the citizen usually determine the outcome of an officer/citizen encounter.

That said, in a normal traffic stop, speeding, red light, stop sign, etc it is NOT necessary IMO for you to be disarmed. I carry a badge and if seated in my vehicle would never volunteer that I'm carrying a weapon. If I feel that my person or vehicle is to be immediately searched then I would inform the the officer that I am carrying or have a loaded weapon in my vehicle for his information and my safety.

Some traffic stops are merely fishing expeditions. I see you at 3 AM and my spidy senses are tingling then I will find a PC reason for a traffic stop. I may feel that you could be a suspect in a burglary robbery, rape or other violent crime or maybe even a DUI. Then the situation has changed for the both of us. After stopping said vehicle, driver interview, running the plate and checking ID, I'd either be satisfied and you would be on you way with a drive safe, a verbal warning, a hard copy ticket, or possibly incarceration.

Police need to be knowledgeable, understanding, fair and well supervised. That said, sometimes citizens need to give the officer benefit of doubt. There is no excuse for the attitude displayed by DC Cop if indeed he really is a police officer.

I am by no means perfect but try to live by the "Golden Rule". There are so many variables which could or would explain an officer's reaction to a specific incident that it makes typing a response to this question difficult if not impossible :rolleyesedit:

 

[flagtag]

I'm a retired officer with over 30 years of work and people experience behind me. That does not make me an expert (or correct) by any means but I will express my opinion on this topic. I could be your very best friend or the biggest dick that you ever wanted to meet. It all depends upon the circumstances and attitude (yours and mine) There are people who should not be police officers but there are also people who shouldn't exist on the planet.

Nothing is normal in police work. Every situation requires a fluid response by the officer because every situation is different. The law is not black and white and has varying shades of gray in the interpretation. Normal police are not robots and usually have both good and bad attitudes. Attitude displayed by the officer and the citizen usually determine the outcome of an officer/citizen encounter.

That said, in a normal traffic stop, speeding, red light, stop sign, etc it is NOT necessary IMO for you to be disarmed. I carry a badge and if seated in my vehicle would never volunteer that I'm carrying a weapon. If I feel that my person or vehicle is to be immediately searched then I would inform the the officer that I am carrying or have a loaded weapon in my vehicle for his information and my safety.

Some traffic stops are merely fishing expeditions. I see you at 3 AM and my spidy senses are tingling then I will find a PC reason for a traffic stop. I may feel that you could be a suspect in a burglary robbery, rape or other violent crime or maybe even a DUI. Then the situation has changed for the both of us. After stopping said vehicle, driver interview, running the plate and checking ID, I'd either be satisfied and you would be on you way with a drive safe, a verbal warning, a hard copy ticket, or possibly incarceration.

Police need to be knowledgeable, understanding, fair and well supervised. That said, sometimes citizens need to give the officer benefit of doubt. There is no excuse for the attitude displayed by DC Cop if indeed he really is a police officer.

I am by no means perfect but try to live by the "Golden Rule". There are so many variables which could or would explain an officer's reaction to a specific incident that it makes typing a response to this question difficult if not impossible :rolleyesedit:

Still, an excellent response!

 

[bwframe]

Police need to be knowledgeable, understanding, fair and well supervised. That said, sometimes citizens need to give the officer benefit of doubt. There is no excuse for the attitude displayed by DC Cop if indeed he really is a police officer.

Thanks 4Sarge, that says it all.

 

[Dogman]

4sarge, well said.

 

[SavageEagle]

The thread from the original post is very disturbing. Couple that with the threads from Pa. Patriot's experiance and it just gets scarier. Under very few curcumstaces should you ever relieve you firearm to an officer. Being searched, arrested, etc, ok disarm. But for a traffic stop? No way. The officer has no right and is against my rights for him to do so. Does that mean I wont hand it over if he insists? No. I'll give it to him as he's handing me his name, badge number, and superviseors name and phone number. A lawsuit will be filed. Will I tell the officer should I be pulled over I'm carrying and licensed? Sure. Why not? I've fought PPD in court a couple times. Won and lost.

Sure cops make mistakes. Did I enjoy catching the LEO in a lie in court? No, but I didn't even get to plead my case either. Did I get harassed afterwards? You bet your butt I did. LE will FIND a reason to pull you over. There is no way everyone can obey every law every day all day. It's just not possible. There are too many laws. Speaking of which, laws are to be created for the good of the people, by the people, for the people. They are created to SAVE LIVES. If I'm not using my turn signal when there is NO ONE AROUND, am I hurting anything? If Im speeding on the interstate, say 80/75, and there's no one within a quarter mile, am I hurting anyone? Like I said, laws are to save people, animals, and property. If you're not hurting/destroying, are you REALLY breaking the law? Not IMHO.

That being said, LEO's safety is no more important than mine. I respect LEO's for doing there job, putting their life on the line. I Understand that their job is HIGHLY dangerous. I also understand that their job is NEVER normal. Expect the unexpected, all that. BUT that never gives them the right to infringe on MY rights. I understand that not all officers are bad. But come to Plainfield and I'll show you that the majority of them can be. One inpaticular. But to hear and see an officer, ANYWHERE, acting and talking the way I have seen on that other forum shows me that until I'm treated with the respect I deserve, why should I give it? Don't get me wrong, I give EVERYONE the benefit of the doubt off the bat. I'm always nice and polite to anyone until they give me a reason not to. I may be more respectful during a traffic stop or in court, but if I'm being treated like a second class citizen you bet your azz I'll be filing a complaint. If nothing comes of it, a lawsuit depending on the severity of the situation. I've threatened that on two occasions and the situation was resolved both times very quickly.

In conclusion, I believe Lars is right. Comply in the moment, file complaint if nessecary later. Otherwise you WILL end up in cuffs. Also, LEO's with the attitude of FU and your right to carry don't need to be officers. Same with any LEO who doesn't care about ANY of your rights period. I have a lot of respect for LEOs who are pro-rights, and realize they are citizens just like evryone else. That they are NOT above the law and that they are NOT the law. They are ENFORCEMENT. And like in the military when you are given a bad order, you dont have to enforce a bad law.

 

[thelefthand]

I think this is the first time that I've read all of a thread that was 10 pages long. I have to admit that I stopped after the first page of the tread from officers.com or what ever it was. Very disturbing indeed.

Lots of good replies on here. I have to admit, that as a new member I doubt that I ever take anything from Glocklover seriously. To chime in from a citizen’s point of view when in fact it's something you'll never have to subject yourself too because of your profession, well that's not even close to right. It's one thing to say that, as a LEO, you don't have a problem with the idea of disarming someone during a traffic stop. What you've said and done is something different, and honestly it's a bit shameful.

I have been instructed by several LEOs and attorneys to NEVER say or do more than I am asked. If the officer doesn't care either way, then he doesn’t want to know. If he's looking for a reason to get you out and search the vehicle, then you don't need to help him. Just because you didn't put something into your vehicle doesn't mean that someone else didn't leave something there by mistake. I've actually had officers tell me that it's very easy to plant evidence.

I'd have to say that if an officer asked for my weapon, my first reply would be "I think it's safer for both of us to leave it right where it's at." If he insisted, then yes I would give it to him, EMPTY. It is my practice to NEVER, under ANY circumstances hand someone a loaded handgun. IMHO, it can NOT be done safely. You can lay it down, and they can pick it up, but you can NOT hand it to them without the risk of sweeping them or yourself with the muzzle. My practice is to clear the weapon, lock the action back, and hand it to them with the barrel facing me and the ejection port up so that they can see it's condition prior to actually receiving the weapon. I would make sure to (respectfully) get the officers name and badge number as well as the name and number of his shift supervisor, and I would file a complaint.

Bottom line, we all have the right to make it home safe, but their right to make it home safe doesn't trump any of my rights, and visa versa. If anyone disagrees, how about this. You have the right not to be beaten with a tire iron, but how about you let me infringe on that right for just 10 or 15 minutes? Sound like a good idea? Why not, I mean it's only 10 or 15 minutes, then I'll stop... promise.... It makes about as much sense to me to infringe upon my rights whether I was speeding or not. My rights are my rights until I am CONVICTED in a COURT OF LAW of a FELONY. Then, and only then, does our constitution allow for my rights to be taken away. Heck, these days they just give you a different set of rights then, but that's a whole other topic.

Just my 2 bits,
Mark

 

[Glock Lover]

I think this is the first time that I've read all of a thread that was 10 pages long. I have to admit that I stopped after the first page of the tread from officers.com or what ever it was. Very disturbing indeed.

Lots of good replys on here. I have to admit, that as a new member I doubt that I ever take anything from Glocklover seriously. To chime in from a cititizens point of view when infact it's something you'll never have to subject yourself too because of your profession, well that's not even close to right. It's one thing to say that, as a LEO, you don't have a problem with the idea of dissarming someone during a traffic stop. What you've said and done is something different, and honestly it's a bit shamefull.

I have been instructed by several LEOs and attournies to NEVER say or do more than I am asked. If the officer doesn't care either way, then he doens't want to know. If he's looking for a reason to get you out and search the vehicle, then you don't need to help him. Just because you didn't put something into your vehicle doesn't mean that someone else didn't leave something there by mistake.

I'd have to say that if an officer asked for my weapon, my first reply would be "I think it's safer for both of us to leave it right where it's at." If he insisted, then yes I would give it to him, EMPTY. It is my practice to NEVER, under ANY curcumstances hand someone a loaded handgun. IMHO, it can NOT be done safely. You can lay it down, and they can pick it up, but you can NOT hand it to them without the risk of sweeping them or yourself with the muzzle. My practice is to clear the weapon, lock the action back, and hand it to them with the barrel facing me and the ejection port up so that they can see it's condition prior to actually recieving the weapon.

I would make sure to (respectfully) get the officers name and badge number as well as the name and number of his shift supervisor, and I would file a complaint.

Bottom line, we all have the right to make it home safe, but their right to make it home safe doesn't trump any of my rights, and visa versa. If anyone disagrees, how about this. You have the right not to be beaten with a tire iron, but how about you let me infringe on that right for just 10 or 15 minutes? Sound like a good idea? Why not, I mean it's only 10 or 15 minutes, then I'll stop... promise.... It makes about as much sense to me to infringe upon my rights whether I was speeding or not. My rights are my rights until I am CONVICTED in a COURT OF LAW of a FELONY. Then, and only then, does our constitution allow for my rights to be taken away. Heck, these days they just give you a different set of rights then, but that's a whole other topic.

Just my 2 bits,
Mark

Wow a lot of haters! Sorry for stating my opinion guys, since I apparently offended everyone. Shoot I'll make sure my opinions and statements in the future are exactly the same as everyone else's. I don't think it's shameful to have an opinion on something. I don't think it is shameful to serve in your community and enforce things even that you may not fully agree with (gun ordinances, seat belt laws, speed limits). But that is for another discussion. If I choose to allow an officer to disarm me for "his safety", than that is my choice, what do you care. You choose to not allow an officer to disarm you, great, that is your choice! You and I have to live with each of our choices and the consequences if there are consequences. Maybe I shouldn't allow, maybe you should. Whatever. I don't hate you for your opinion, don't hate me.
But whatever.

 

[Lars]

.....since I apparently offended everyone.

Disagreeing with you is NOT the same as being offended by you.

 

[Episcopus]

I'd have to say that if an officer asked for my weapon, my first reply would be "I think it's safer for both of us to leave it right where it's at." If he insisted, then yes I would give it to him, EMPTY. It is my practice to NEVER, under ANY circumstances hand someone a loaded handgun. IMHO, it can NOT be done safely.Mark

Not that I disagree with this sentiment, but if an officer wants your weapon, it is very unlikely that you will be touching it. He will be taking it from you. If, by some chance, he lets you touch a gun with him nearby, he will be giving you instructions on exactly how to hold it, where to point it, and how to hand it to him. You will not be messing around with unloading it. The best you could hope for would be to ask to step out of your vehicle and face away from him (assuming you carry strong side), with your hands high so he can reach in and take it in the safest way possible.

I think my first response would be the same as yours. "With all due respect, Officer, I think that we are both safer if neither of us touches a weapon and any weapons stay securely holstered." If he insisted, I would ask to step out and let him take it from me in the safest way possible. The only circumstance under which I would attempt to touch my gun and hand it to him would be if I asked to unload it and he agreed.

 

[Episcopus]

Wow a lot of haters! Sorry for stating my opinion guys, since I apparently offended everyone.

I don't know if you offended very many people. I just think that you are looking at this through different glasses than most people on the board. You are looking at this through your police eyes. You know you are allowed to disarm people, so you do. You are concerned with your own safety, and rightly so, so you do everything you can to make yourself safer. Because this makes you safer, you don't see it as a problem.

Those of us that see this as a problem do so because it makes us less safe. Like you, we are concerned about our own safety. We feel that our safety is at least as important as yours. Speaking for myself, I feel that my safety is more important than yours because it is my safety and you are a stranger. Above all, we feel that we are responsible gun owners and we do the right thing by having our LTCH (for those that have them), and by answering the "do you have a gun" question honestly. We could lie, but that isn't the type of person most of us are. We feel that we deserve at least some sort of respect or common decency in return for the respect and decency we show you and other police by being honest. We don't want to be treated like criminals. We don't want to be removed from our cars, spread eagle, leaned over the hood or trunk and patted down in front of our families and the whole world. Is it too much to ask for a return of the respect we show to the police we encounter? Remember, if I wanted to shoot a cop that pulled me over, I would do it before he even said a word to me. It would be over well before he had the chance to ask if I had a weapon.

My other thought is, if you are afraid of being shot by every single person you pull over for every single violation of the law, maybe it is time to start a new career. I don't mean wary upon approaching a car until you assess a situation. I mean scared. Stepping out of the cruiser and asking yourself "well, is this the one" kind of scared.

Do you take knives, pepper spray or expanding batons from the people that have those in the car?

 

[bwframe]

Wow a lot of haters! Sorry for stating my opinion guys, since I apparently offended everyone.

How's that old saying go?
When everyone else is wrong, maybe it's time to take a good hard look in the mirror.

 

[Glock Lover]

Never said everyone else is wrong. Never said anything about being scared. Interesting...Anyway....Loved the debate guys. Peace.

 

[thelefthand]

Glock lover - I don't hate you, and you are certainly entitled to your opinions, just as much as I am. Like Episcopus said, your perspective is that of a police officer, and I honestly can't blame you for having that view point. The problem is that you didn't present the opinion as such, and (I think) that would have made a world of difference in how it was recieved. Towards the end it even sounded like you were just trying to stir up trouble (hopefully not). Then it comes out that you are a LEO, and it casts a shadow on something that I'm sure is very near and dear to you. Not good. I really don't think that anyone who has posted on this thread wishes to tarnish or disrespect in any way those who have chosen to serve. That's where my "shamefull" comment is directed. Nothing wrong with debating different view points and opinions. Nothing wrong with that at all. But however right or wrong it is, a LEO will treat you differently than he treats most of the rest of us because you are LEO as well, and (once again in my opinion) that makes a difference in this discussion.

 

[SavageEagle]

Wow a lot of haters! Sorry for stating my opinion guys, since I apparently offended everyone.

I don't hate you for your opinion, don't hate me.
But whatever.

Just to be clear, I wasn't hating on you for your opinion. I was hatin on the LEO's who think "I am Police Officer, You Bad Guy, *whack whack whack handcuff handcuff whack*" There are those out there and I can name you one here in Plainfield. You sound like a pretty down to earth guy and seem like you realize you are just an average Joe like the rest of us. Here in Plainfield, we had an officer, Officer Graham, who was VERY down to earth, and very involved with the town youth. He would come to Hummel Park and rollerblade with us every Wed. night in the Summer and every Saturday night during school. It was sorta an effort to give us rowdy kids something to do that also showed us LE wasn't the evil the evil TV made them out to be. And he was right. To an extent. The one I won't name who is STILL on the force (why idk) would threaten to rip your spine out to get you to tell him what he wanted to hear. Yes I have witnesses to prove so.

ANYWAY, I just wanted to clarify, I meant no disrespect to you nor did you offend me with your opinion. The other guys in the other forums did, but not you. I think I speak for all of us when I say your input and experiances are a valuable asset to everyone here. Members and Guests alike.