The TRUTH about the 1911!!

[churchmouse]

Sorry LM but I could not watch the whole thing. Guy is an idiot. I have seen his videos before and he was an idiot in those as well. He is correct that there are some nice production 1911s out there. I will even argue that 1911s are a game of diminishing returns. An $800 is twice as good as a $400, but a $1600 gun is not 4x better. It is or at least should be nicer though.

For the record if given the choice between 3 new Sigs or a Kobra Carry I'm taking the Ed Brown. And yes I would carry and use that gun.

No Sigs.........Just not for me.

 

[lovemachine]

I'm going to stop looking at them now. I can't afford one, and I have already decided against selling an AR, even though neither one gets shot....

 

[TheBoss930]

I'm going to stop looking at them now. I can't afford one, and I have already decided against selling an AR, even though neither one gets shot....

Good choice

 

[VERT]

I only own one AR. A second one would cut into my 1911 storage space.

 

[88E30M50]

One of the best deals out there right now for a 1911 is the CZ 1911A1. Those are built by Dan Wesson and they only made 1000 of them. You can still find them around new for about $800 which for a 1911 that has all tool steel internals, a forged slide and frame and has a great fit/finish, that's not bad. They are not perfect, but if you were putting together a project gun, it would make a good starting point. The thumb safety is overly stiff on just about every one I've seen, but that's a simple part to swap out for a good 1911 smith. If it's a carry gun, you'll probably want to go with an extended thumb safety anyway. The factory sights suck (to me at least), but that's common now days. It seems that most manufacturers put the cheapest sight possible in there because they are just going to get swapped out anyway.

 

[rhino]

So I'm curious. Are they right about not wanting MIM parts in a 1911?

It depends on which parts and how long and hard you intend to use them. Ideally you'd have none, but that would significant increase the MSRP of the guns you buy.

MIM hammers and sears can be tricky. Once you get much past the surface, they're really soft. Because of that, if you do a "trigger job" that involves much more than a little polishing, you're much better off with machined steel parts that are hardened all the way through.

For example, I have a Kimber that went over 20,000 documented rounds and a little dry firing with the original MIM hammer and sear. Not long after that, the contact surface between the hammer hooks and sear hooks failed. Now I have C&S steel parts, that are likely to last the lifetime of the gun. If the hammer and sear contact surfaces need polishing or even the angle adjusted, no problem.

I must've missed the MIM part. Can anyone explain this please?

Molten Injected Metal. Not forged bar stock machined pieces.

MIM = Metal Injection Molding

Essentially it's a powdered metal mixed with a polymer. The mix is injected into a mold, then heated until the metal particles are fused into one piece. At the same time, the polymer is lost due to the heat, so the volume of the piece actually decreases during the process. The big advantage is lower cost.

With casting, it's just a molten metal poured into a mold, then allowed to cool, then heat treated to get the desired mechanical properties. Cast parts can be very strong with proper heat treatment.

I'm going to stop looking at them now. I can't afford one, and I have already decided against selling an AR, even though neither one gets shot....

Never sell your only AR.


While it's true that "you get what you pay for" applies to 1911s, there are some anomalies. For instance, Armscor 1911s in .45ACP (whether Rock Island Armory, Citidel, or whatever roll mark of the week they choose) are dirt cheap, but they almost always function properly. Are they refined and as pleasurable to shoot as a Wilson or a custom-build? No way, but they work. I've seen a lot of them in matches, classes, etc. and I've seen very few RIA .45s that don't function properly. If you want to try a 1911 with a minimal investment, it's a viable option. After you decide you like it, you can get something else, and by that point you'll be a better educated 1911 consumer.

You can even do some work on them to make them really good shooters if you want, but it's not always a straightforward process because there are frequently dimensional and tolerance irregularities that make modifications or installing better parts . . . challenging. That leads me to believe that they do a lot more final fitting work by necessity at the Armscor shops than for instance Kimber or Springfield Armory would do.

If I were buying a 1911 and I wanted to know it would work and that it was a good shooter, I'd buy a used (not abused) gun from someone who let me test fire with my magazines and my ammunition before dealing the deal. There are no manufacturers who can guarantee that the new gun that you buy will function properly right out of the box. They can warranty their guns and do great customer service, but any shop can produce a lemon and most of them are not going to fire a couple of hundred rounds of 230gr Gold Dots before they sell it to you just to make sure. So being able to test drive is key, and you can only do that with used gun. The upside, used guns cost less!

If I were looking right now, I'd look for a used Springfield Armory TRP. If any work was done to it, I'd want to know what, by whom, and when. And then I'd want to test drive it.

 

[Bosshoss]

Ahh so basically casted parts

Yup.

MIM is absolutely not the same or anywhere close to the same as cast.

I think that there's a difference. With a cast part, the basic metal used is melted and poured into a mold. With MIM, the powdered metal is formed into a slurry with a binder and injected into a mold that's slightly oversized. Then the finished part is baked at a high temperature which burns the binder off and the powdered metal fuses into a solid piece. Here's a better article that describes the process. Metal Injection Molding – A Primer

From the article, I gather that MIM is better than cast and can be quite good if the QC is up to snuff. I have read that there are jet engines that use MIM turbine blades and that is about as critical an application as you can find. The problem with MIM is not so much MIM itself, but the process and QC used by the manufacturer. JMHO though.

This it true there are different levels of quality whether cast, MIM, or forged. I have seen forged parts that are crap and cast parts that were works of art and everything between. Manufactures make a part to a price point and to a certain quality point. Before MIM parts were even heard of in guns 90% of the 1911's I worked on were for replacement hammers and sears.(trigger jobs) Those were forged parts in the guns that were being replaced with BETTER QUALITY forged parts.
If you are replacing MIM parts in your 1911 it is because you are replacing them with BETTER QUALITY parts same as we did years ago. There are lots of guns out there with MIM parts that have thousands and thousands of rounds thru them and no issues.

These days I specialize in working on S&W revolvers for competition with a few carry guns thrown in and I work on MIM and forged parts almost daily. I have seen far more bad forged parts than MIM parts from the factory. The MIM parts are MUCH more precise than the old forged parts. Are they as durable? I don't know I will let you know if anyone wears out a MIM gun.

I always enjoy the S&W revolver "experts" that bad mouth the MIM parts as being junk and then turn around and talk about Rugers being so strong and well built. Rugers have CAST frames and S&W have forged frames. Ruger guns are strong and their frames are massive because they are cast. Ruger is a example of excellent quality casting.

Does anyone remember the Ruger and S&W ads from years ago?
Here is the S&W one I have saved but haven't found the Ruger one online.

 

[churchmouse]

OK my wording on the MIM is off. I do know what the process involves but for some reason called it "Casting"

 

[lovemachine]

1911's are complicated. Maybe I should just stick with my polymer guns

 

[Bosshoss]

MIM hammers and sears can be tricky. Once you get much past the surface, they're really soft. Because of that, if you do a "trigger job" that involves much more than a little polishing, you're much better off with machined steel parts that are hardened all the way through.

Joe the thickness of the heat treating is the same on MIM or forged parts IF it is done properly. Below the heat treating the hardness of the untreated metal is the same MIM or forged as long as the manufacture specs them to the same level. As someone who cuts S&W hammers in two pretty often I can assure you that they are not soft and gooey on the inside.

For example, I have a Kimber that went over 20,000 documented rounds and a little dry firing with the original MIM hammer and sear. Not long after that, the contact surface between the hammer hooks and sear hooks failed. Now I have C&S steel parts, that are likely to last the lifetime of the gun. If the hammer and sear contact surfaces need polishing or even the angle adjusted, no problem.

​I don't know what the duty cycle of Kimber parts are but most of them are never fired that much. They are not the best quality parts for sure or the guns would cost a lot more.
I have seen some high end 1911 parts fail before in less than 5000 rounds. ANY manufacture can make a few bad ones.

MIM = Metal Injection Molding

Essentially it's a powdered metal mixed with a polymer. The mix is injected into a mold, then heated until the metal particles are fused into one piece. At the same time, the polymer is lost due to the heat, so the volume of the piece actually decreases during the process. The big advantage is lower cost.

MIM is not cheap to produce but is so much more precise that it reduces or eliminates the fitting required which saves $$$$$

 

[rhino]

MIM is not cheap to produce but is so much more precise that it reduces or eliminates the fitting required which saves $$$$$

Once you have the molds perfected to get the dimensions you need, the cost per unit drops.

Re: heat treating MIM . . . I doubt if the heat treatments for MIM parts is uniform across the industry, just like the heat treatment of AR hammers isn't uniform across the industry. I speculate that S&W wants a more durable product and they expect people to have work done on the internal parts. I am skeptical that the hardening of a Kimber MIM hammer and sear goes to the same depth as the same parts from EGW or C&S (or whomever machines them for them).

And of course I don't really know doodly about Amish guns. I know a little about 1911s and their parts.

Re: making bad parts . . . yep, anyone can make them. But in general, 1911 hammers and sears cut and machined from bar stock are going to be more durable than their MIM equivalents. Could the manufacturers do better MIM parts than what we see? Yeah, but not at their price point.

 

[Deereman7]

Noooo don't give up on a 1911. Please don't sell your at. Once you get a good one. It will be your favorite. I've had many. It just took me a while to find the "right" ones. And each one of us has our own tastes. A good 1911 is one that suites your needs and wants. Even though several of us don't like mim. It maybe ok for you. I like your idea of Dan Wesson. Or I like Sti and Ed brown. And money isn't everything. I've had a Wilson I didn't care for and ordered a very nice Nighthawk that I got rid of because they couldn't fix it. Very aggravating. You can get a Sti Trojan for around a grand. I'd rather have one that has checkering. I think I read something bad about sig 1911. I kinda like them. They don't have a 3.5 pd trigger. But reliable. Just saying

 

[Bosshoss]

I am skeptical that the hardening of a Kimber MIM hammer and sear goes to the same depth as the same parts from EGW or C&S (or whomever machines them for them).
I would say that comparing a $20 or $30 fire control set to a $150 fire control set you are probably right. Better materials and better care in the heat treating.
But if you took a manufactures specs for that hammer and sear even if it was a top name manufacture(Wilson, EGW, ect) and used the same alloys(Iron,carbon,etc.) in the same percentages in both sears and hammers and made one by forging and one is put in the MIM process and both of them are then heat treated to the same Rockwell then they will be very close to if not the same. The molds are very expensive and smaller manufactures that sell low volume parts like what we are talking about can't afford to have them made.



Re: making bad parts . . . yep, anyone can make them. But in general, 1911 hammers and sears cut and machined from bar stock are going to be more durable than their MIM equivalents. Could the manufacturers do better MIM parts than what we see? Yeah, but not at their price point.

What makes bar stock parts more durable than MIM equivalents?
A general statement like that I would have to disagree with. Now if you are saying a $150 EGW set is better than a stock Kimber MIM set I would agree with but not because of how they are made but because the quality of tool steel used and the care in machining it and heat treating it.
Like I said earlier I replaced a lot of hammers and sears years ago and the ones I took out were forged parts just not as good as the ones that went back in. So this is nothing new.

You are right that MIM can be better IF you can afford it.

 

[Bosshoss]

I know this thread is about 1911's but our discussion about forged vs MIM parts was happened to come to mind today.
I started work today on a customers S&W model 14 that is going to be a ICORE classic competition gun. It is a old enough gun that it has forged parts in it.
I stated previously that I see a lot more defective forged parts than MIM parts.
Just so happens the next gun I opened and I get this.



That pock marked area in the center of the picture is a machined working surface.

While this is rare it happens a lot more with forged parts.

Just thought I would post this as we were just discussing this.

 

[churchmouse]

I know this thread is about 1911's but our discussion about forged vs MIM parts was happened to come to mind today.
I started work today on a customers S&W model 14 that is going to be a ICORE classic competition gun. It is a old enough gun that it has forged parts in it.
I stated previously that I see a lot more defective forged parts than MIM parts.
Just so happens the next gun I opened and I get this.



That pock marked area in the center of the picture is a machined working surface.

While this is rare it happens a lot more with forged parts.

Just thought I would post this as we were just discussing this.

Inadequate heat treating...

 

[Woobie]

1911's are complicated. Maybe I should just stick with my polymer guns

A timex does a great job telling time, but that's about it. A Rolex does the same, but with style. It brings a different level of enjoyment to the owner. I'm jonesin for a couple of new pistols, and one is definitely a 1911.

 

[churchmouse]

A time does a great job telling time, but that's about it. A Rolex does the same, but with style. It brings a different level of enjoyment to the owner. I'm jonesin for a couple of new pistols, and one is definitely a 1911.

Cool.

 

[lovemachine]

A timex does a great job telling time, but that's about it. A Rolex does the same, but with style. It brings a different level of enjoyment to the owner. I'm jonesin for a couple of new pistols, and one is definitely a 1911.

I still want a 1911.

 

[churchmouse]

I still want a 1911.

When time allows we can meet up at MCF&G or somewhere you know and run some of mine if you wish.

 

[lovemachine]

When time allows we can meet up at MCF&G or somewhere you know and run some of mine if you wish.