The Republican Primary Race Is Filling Up

[jamil]

IMHO, it is less about appealing to minorities, and more about staying principled. That's what resonates with people - all people. Conservativism should appeal to anyone, and MOST to people who feel like they do not belong.

Conservativism is allowing people - all people - to go about their business as they see fit.

Well, yes. But we don't do a very good job of selling it.

 

[ArcadiaGP]

Marco Rubio Is The GOP's Best Shot At The Presidency

Let’s clear a few of the stupid arguments out of the way. Desperate competitors have been arguing that Rubio is too green to be president. It could be true, but it’s irrelevant. The experience train has left the station. Voters are clearly in no mood this year to settle for a member of the old guard.

Yes, he is obviously ambitious. Ted Cruz isn’t? It’s fair to say this is an occupational hazard of people who volunteer themselves as fit to lead the free world.

Equally foolish is the claim that Rubio’s “establishment” connections make him untrustworthy. Ironically, one of the main purveyors of this smear is Jeb Bush. Finding himself seated atop a massive war chest with no real path to the White House, Bush used those dollars to spread the message that Rubio is a shifty, scheming establishment stooge. Aren’t these political ironies fun?

Here Comes Socialism

Now would be the perfect time to get it together, because over on the other side of the line, the signs are ominous. A self-identified socialist has a very real chance of winning the nomination. Even if he doesn’t, his popularity shows that socialism is no longer an ugly word among young people. Almost half of Americans under 30 say their associations with socialism are positive, which explains why Sen. Bernie Sanders absolutely dominated among young Democrats in Iowa.

 

[T.Lex]

I'm starting to think Trump reflects east coast "conservativism" and will win NH.

No updates from SC.

 

[Jludo]

IMHO, it is less about appealing to minorities, and more about staying principled. That's what resonates with people - all people. Conservativism should appeal to anyone, and MOST to people who feel like they do not belong.

Conservativism is allowing people - all people - to go about their business as they see fit.

That'd be libertarianism, Conservatism is for allowing people to go about their business as they see fit as long as it's what conservatives also see fit. Gay marriage, drug decriminalization, hawkish foreign policy.
The mouthpieces of conservative talk radio are definitely not about letting all people go about their business as they see fit.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

That'd be libertarianism, Conservatism is for allowing people to go about their business as they see fit as long as it's what conservatives also see fit. Gay marriage, drug decriminalization, hawkish foreign policy.
The mouthpieces of conservative talk radio are definitely not about letting all people go about their business as they see fit.

Text book type definitions are one thing. Actual beliefs, behaviors, and actions are another. All folks from all parties fall short of the defined philosophy on one aspect or another.

 

[Jludo]

Text book type definitions are one thing. Actual beliefs, behaviors, and actions are another. All folks from all parties fall short of the defined philosophy on one aspect or another.

Are you saying conservatives, ideally, would line up with libertarians on their philosophy?

 

[ArcadiaGP]

Are you saying conservatives, ideally, would line up with libertarians on their philosophy?

I'd call myself a Conservatarian. I think Conservatism is changing... and after people grow up and get out of the Socialist phase... it's a pretty logical choice to be fiscally Conservative with Libertarian leanings.

Humans do evolve... as does society. Some things become more accepted, and they aren't always bad.

 

[T.Lex]

That'd be libertarianism, Conservatism is for allowing people to go about their business as they see fit as long as it's what conservatives also see fit. Gay marriage, drug decriminalization, hawkish foreign policy.
The mouthpieces of conservative talk radio are definitely not about letting all people go about their business as they see fit.

Therein lies the principle problem, IMHO.

And I think the drug decriminalization thing is an example of where libertarianism and conservativism part ways. Conservativism recognizes that some laws are beneficial for the whole - IMHO like drug laws. Some drugs should absolutely be illegal, although reasonable people can disagree on where that line is drawn.

The foreign policy distinction is also there. To me, principled conservative foreign policy allows - even mandates - intervention when it is consistent with the principles.

 

[Jludo]

Therein lies the principle problem, IMHO.

And I think the drug decriminalization thing is an example of where libertarianism and conservativism part ways. Conservativism recognizes that some laws are beneficial for the whole - IMHO like drug laws. Some drugs should absolutely be illegal, although reasonable people can disagree on where that line is drawn.
The foreign policy distinction is also there. To me, principled conservative foreign policy allows - even mandates - intervention when it is consistent with the principles.

That's neo-conservative foreign policy, as for the drugs, conservatives tend to be on the wrong side going forward. A lot of drugs are poorly categorized, the issue should be left to the states and our punishments of hard time for users/non violent offenders only exacerbates a problem that is medical in nature, not criminal (or shouldn't be criminal, I should say)

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

Are you saying conservatives, ideally, would line up with libertarians on their philosophy?

Not exactly, no. As I understand it, libertarian philosophy doesn't even align all that well with the Constitution. I believe if we faithfully followed the Constitution, as predicated by the DoI, and the founding fathers' spirit and intent, we'd be better off and where a Venn diagram of conservatism, libertarianism, and Constitutionalism all overlap, I'd be there. So, no libertarians do not align with conservatives nor me.

 

[Jludo]

I'd call myself a Conservatarian. I think Conservatism is changing... and after people grow up and get out of the Socialist phase... it's a pretty logical choice to be fiscally Conservative with Libertarian leanings.

Humans do evolve... as does society. Some things become more accepted, and they aren't always bad.

I don't really buy the socialism is just young naivety, we've obviously moved into a mixed economy in the last 100 years where the balance between socialism and capitalism is always shifting. Bernie is just capitalizing on the injustices of the particular mixed system we have now. His appeal is that he's the only one who seems to want to confront the growing wealth gap and pure cronyism that runs Washington. Of course more government power/control isn't the correct solution to this problem but he is the only one willing to confront the problem so bluntly.
Bernie is tapping into the same thing Ron Paul was, they are correctly diagnosing the problem, just that Bernie is getting the traction where Paul never did.

 

[Jludo]

Not exactly, no. As I understand it, libertarian philosophy doesn't even align all that well with the Constitution. I believe if we faithfully followed the Constitution, as predicated by the DoI, and the founding fathers' spirit and intent, we'd be better off and where a Venn diagram of conservatism, libertarianism, and Constitutionalism all overlap, I'd be there. So, no libertarians do not align with conservatives nor me.

You believe our modern conservatism better aligns with the Constitution and founding father ideals than libertarianism does?

 

[T.Lex]

That's neo-conservative foreign policy

Which means what?

as for the drugs, conservatives tend to be on the wrong side going forward. A lot of drugs are poorly categorized

Ok. I thought I said reasonable people can disagree on where to draw the lines. That's the cool thing about a constitutional democratic republic, people get to vote for people willing to draw the lines where most people want them. Then, if people change their minds, the lines can be redrawn.

the issue should be left to the states

I'd be ok with that. In fact, that's a conservative notion - let states, and even lower-level .gov decide things. Less federal involvement.

Now, when it comes to scheduled drugs, I think there is room for federal influence on how those are regulated.

and our punishments of hard time for users/non violent offenders only exacerbates a problem that is medical in nature, not criminal (or shouldn't be criminal, I should say)

As someone with friends and family who are addicts - legal and illegal drugs - I think there are different layers to this. First, at the individual level, it is a medical issue. But, there is a social issue when people act illegally to procure the drugs. The political issue is how to address that.

The penalties for drug crimes, too, are properly open for re-assessment.

 

[jamil]

Are you saying conservatives, ideally, would line up with libertarians on their philosophy?

There are many flavors of conservatives as well as libertarians. Maybe it's less useful to imagine we can affix a label and say that accurately represents people's politics. But labels are easier to use than Venn diagrams.

I'd call myself a Conservatarian. I think Conservatism is changing... and after people grow up and get out of the Socialist phase... it's a pretty logical choice to be fiscally Conservative with Libertarian leanings.

Humans do evolve... as does society. Some things become more accepted, and they aren't always bad.

Yeah, it's kinda changing. Conservatives are getting angrier. I look at my own evolution and I have to admit that I lean further libertarian than I used to. The drug wars made sense, ideologically. They don't anymore.

Not exactly, no. As I understand it, libertarian philosophy doesn't even align all that well with the Constitution. I believe if we faithfully followed the Constitution, as predicated by the DoI, and the founding fathers' spirit and intent, we'd be better off and where a Venn diagram of conservatism, libertarianism, and Constitutionalism all overlap, I'd be there. So, no libertarians do not align with conservatives nor me.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

You believe our modern conservatism better aligns with the Constitution and founding father ideals than libertarianism does?

I contend neither do to my satisfaction.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

the issue should be left to the states

I'd be ok with that. In fact, that's a conservative notion - let states, and even lower-level .gov decide things. Less federal involvement.

On many issues, many libertarians seem to vehemently be opposed to this. Their rationale often sounds indistinguishable from conservatives and liberals.

 

[Jludo]

On many issues, many libertarians seem to vehemently be opposed to this. Their rationale often sounds indistinguishable from conservatives and liberals.

You find libertarians are opposed to states rights? Id have to disagree.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

You find libertarians are opposed to states rights? Id have to disagree.

OK.

 

[MisterChester]

You find libertarians are opposed to states rights? Id have to disagree.

I think it really depends on the issue. Libertarians, if in power, would not permit states to take away rights. It's not so much about states rights as it is about liberties or rights being taken away.

If we take a strict constitutionalist view at states rights then we must admit states do not have rights to begin with, they only have powers.

 

[ArcadiaGP]

Ted Cruz 2016: Jeff Duncan endorsement - POLITICO