The President Trump Immigration Thread

[printcraft]

Are you just playing the underachiever or is this a real problem?

The point, mi amigo, (notice how I intersperse my comments with another language), is that this cannister which is available at most offshore marine outlets is pretty standard rigging for large offshore vessels and costs about $700. If a coyote is getting a couple grand per person, a throwaway device at that price makes sense.

Heck, you could haul a 100 kilos of marijuana over that nice round wall crown and not abrade the line much at all.

When the wind is right, all you'd need is a kite.

For every hi-tech barrier solution, there is a junkyard way to defeat it.

Yes, any barrier can be defeated with time. That's where the border patrol comes in.
Instead of scurrying across an open border in the dead of night. (<not an animal reference kut) they have to spend time in the open trying to get across.
That raises the prospect of getting caught and stopped significantly.

Q: Do you lock your doors on your house when you are away?
If so, why? Someone could probably get in pretty quickly anyhow.

Wait, do you lock your doors when you are home?
If so, why? Do you think you catching someone in the act of breaking into your home would be a deterrent to them entering your home?

I just can't see why locking your doors would make a difference, Oh boy, here I go underachieving again.

 

[Alpo]

There is little in my house of value.

But, with a person south of a wall with no money and lots of time on their hands....America. Opportunity.

Plus, there are a lot of people watching my house on a day to day basis. Neighbors. Cops. People driving up the street.

There is 1900 miles along the Mexican border.

You do the math.

 

[printcraft]

There is little in my house of value..

You won't mind someone just stopping in intent on doing you harm then?
Ok Paul.

[video=youtube;v3t10NEKGdw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3t10NEKGdw[/video]

But, with a person south of a wall with no money and lots of time on their hands....America. Opportunity.

Plus, there are a lot of people watching my house on a day to day basis. Neighbors. Cops. People driving up the street.

There is 1900 miles along the Mexican border.

You do the math.

Sounds like more border patrol jobs.
They would pay for themselves out of the 100 billion + yearly costs associated with illegal border hoppers. (<not a frog reference kut, I happen to like the French)

 

[Liberty1916]

Not really. There is nothing we can do that will *stop* illegal immigration. If just one illegal immigrant slips through every now and again, you haven't stopped it. The wall isn't going to stop it. It might impede it. Obviously it will deter those who aren't willing to go to the extra trouble of circumventing it.

E-verify would help. But since we have so many leftist enclaves willing to ignore immigration laws I'm pretty sure there'll still be safe and inviting places for illegals to live and work once they get here.

Exactly. That's the point. Opponents of a wall act like - "you'll never stop it so why try". Proponents are saying, "we'd like to stop as much as possible". You can't shoot a golf game in 18 strokes but you can improve from 90 to 70, and anything will beat the 200+ game we have today.

 

[printcraft]

Exactly. That's the point. Opponents of a wall act like - "you'll never stop it so why try". Proponents are saying, "we'd like to stop as much as possible". You can't shoot a golf game in 18 strokes but you can improve from 90 to 70, and anything will beat the 200+ game we have today.

This concept is difficult to grasp. It's like next level **** man.

 

[Alpo]

There you go again, pulling numbers out of the ether.

 

[Liberty1916]

There is little in my house of value.

But, with a person south of a wall with no money and lots of time on their hands....America. Opportunity.

We need that sweaty guy button pushing meme. America is the land of opportunity. America oppresses people of color.

 

[Alpo]

Don't carry your painted turds to another thread please.

 

[Liberty1916]

Don't carry your painted turds to another thread please.

I can't tell if that's racist or not.

 

[printcraft]

There you go again, pulling numbers out of the ether.

So what amount do YOU believe is closer to the truth?

(also, how much do you have in your piggy bank? AND can I come over and take it? Your doors are unlocked? Oh, wait.....)

https://fairus.org/issue/publicatio...n-illegal-immigration-united-states-taxpayers

 

[KLB]

You won't mind someone just stopping in intent on doing you harm then?
Ok Paul.



Sounds like more border patrol jobs.
They would pay for themselves out of the 100 billion + yearly costs associated with illegal border hoppers. (<not a frog reference kut, I happen to like the French)

Great borrow some more money, because we don't have that money.

 

[Alpo]

Well, I've seen that medical costs for uninsured aliens was estimated at $5 billion. And yes, there are other services and law enforcement costs associated with these folks.

But, everyone seems to forget their contribution to GDP and GNP. Those 12.5 million people need homes, cars and a job, just like the rest of us. There is a multiplier effect of those demands on the remainder of the economy. So, I don't "buy" a conservative rag's estimate of the net cost/contribution.

I've said it before, a lot of these aliens comes from very good families who don't have a high incidence of crime...other than being here illegally. They work and work hard at jobs that most Americans wouldn't do or won't do unless they are forced into it. Present unemployment rates and open positions in industry indicate they aren't "stealing" your job or mine.

I had my roof redone a few years back. At the same time, a neighbor had his roof repaired. I used a local guy who is known to have a good crew. About 9 Hondurans showed up in the morning and crawled up my steeply pitched roof and removed the old shingles and paper, repapered, put down water/ice barriers and hand-nailed new shingles, cleaned up and were off my site by 4:30 that afternoon. I was amazed how quickly they worked. Sitting on old foam couch cushions to prevent slipping.

The neighbor's house was done by a good crew of red-blooded Americans. It took him 8 days.

So, while I appreciate all the economic statistics, they really don't tell the whole story. And the story they tell seems to start out "once upon a time".

 

[Liberty1916]

I've always found the argument "they do jobs American's won't do" to be blatantly dishonest. As if people in Vermont never get their lawns mowed or houses roofed. What people really mean when they say that is "they'll do jobs for substandard wages when American's won't".

There's an easy way to solve both problems. Get rid of welfare, and maybe Americans will climb on your roof for $3 an hour or maybe you'll pay a fair wage for the job instead.

 

[Alpo]

I'm afraid it's not. I haven't seen a lot of white boys picking lettuce or grapes. Farm labor is strategically important to the health and safety of America. We are so used to having fresh, high quality food that we don't think about what it takes to get it from the field to our table. And while mechanization has occurred, there is still a tremendous amount of labor associated with produce.

If a farmer paid you twice what he pays the stoop laborer, are you willing to do his job?

That's just one example. Do the math yourself. If an average illegal spends $5,000 a year in the USA ($100 a week is certainly a low estimate), that is $63 billion a year in demand on our economy. Use any rational multiplier you wish on that demand figure and you get a significant value added to our economy.

Said another way, take 12.5 million people out of the US economic demand. We are in a 7 year recession.

 

[Liberty1916]

I'm afraid it's not. I haven't seen a lot of white boys picking lettuce or grapes. Farm labor is strategically important to the health and safety of America. We are so used to having fresh, high quality food that we don't think about what it takes to get it from the field to our table. And while mechanization has occurred, there is still a tremendous amount of labor associated with produce.

If a farmer paid you twice what he pays the stoop laborer, are you willing to do his job?

That's just one example. Do the math yourself. If an average illegal spends $5,000 a year in the USA ($100 a week is certainly a low estimate), that is $63 billion a year in demand on our economy. Use any rational multiplier you wish on that demand figure and you get a significant value added to our economy.

Said another way, take 12.5 million people out of the US economic demand. We are in a 7 year recession.

No, I wouldn't take the job. I'm in a more skilled profession. Of course that's not the point though. Would someone sitting around on welfare take the job if they didn't have welfare benefits available? Or how about teenagers who need to develop job skills and a work ethic? And would they take the job for $3 an hour, or would you have to actually pay them a fair wage? Those are the real questions.

Like Karl Rove said - "I don't want my son to have to pick tomatoes". So instead, we put our own citizens on welfare, pamper our children, then congratulate ourselves about how smart we are for paying some poor sap from Honduras $3 an hour to climb on our roof.

 

[Alpo]

And drive to California for the growing season. Yeah. Not likely.

Your old tropes and memes are worn out. Get some real economic data that adds up all the pluses and minuses and then we have something to discuss. A one-sided hyped claim with no support (from either side) isn't useful.

If you pamper your kids, shame on you.

The roofing crew made good money and they all have green cards. They just know how to work. Something that a lot of people never learned from dad and mom.

 

[SheepDog4Life]

If the, in your case, Honduran workers are here legally, both them and the boss are paying taxes, and they are getting paid a fair wage (not one forced upon them by deportation threats) then more power to you and to them. Unfortunately, that is not always or even mostly the case, IMO. It's rather like when I was offered a brand new car stereo, which at the time was $5-600 new for $100. It was one of those "don't ask any questions" deals. Looks like a good deal up close, but is lousy on the whole.

Your $63 billion example of what illegals add to the GDP is instructive in that out of a $18.57 T gross national product, it represents 0.34%. The INCREASE in the rate of growth of the GDP since Trump took office outweighs that already. It is a bit more than a fly on the @$$ of an elephant, but not by much.

Plus, any realistic plan, IMO, MUST allow "guest" workers for the seasonal jobs that pampered Americans simply will not take. Say, instead of the estimated 8 million illegals that currently work here, they only allow in 6 million. But now they pay taxes. They come here on an airplane or bus instead of a coyote. They could stay in motels and take buses to their next site, instead of being transported and living in horse trailers. (LITERALLY... I have seen it with my own eyes). Their kids don't come with them, and don't clog up our schools and don't increase the number of English-as-a-second language classes necessary. (i.e. on average a larger burden per pupil)

Only a fraction of your estimated "economic impact" is lost, and it may turn out to be a net plus. Sure, produce at the store will go up since it is no longer picked by largely indentured servants... but the choice is akin to buying a stolen stereo and not asking any questions.

Sure, WE NEED WORKERS... we do not need ILLEGAL workers.

 

[Liberty1916]

And drive to California for the growing season. Yeah. Not likely.

But yet some guys managed to travel all the way from Honduras to put a roof on your house.

The roofing crew made good money and they all have green cards.

I'm sure $3 an hour is "good money" in Honduras. Did you actually verify the green cards yourself or just take the owners word for it? Because I keep hearing that "verification, not walls" is the best way to combat illegal immigration.

 

[Alpo]

SD4L: Oh, I'm totally behind e-verify, guest worker programs and fair pay. Unfortunately, we've been talking about this for decades and haven't really made any progress through the legislature. If we can't get Obamacare modified, how is Congress going to do anything as complex and penetrating as immigration? I think we'll still be talking about these things in another 10 years.

As to the effect on the economy, you forgot the multipliers. Let's say it's 5 to 10. At our present productivity rate, you've just taken a slowly growing economy into a recession. A few percent matter.

 

[printcraft]

Great borrow some more money, because we don't have that money.

Well, if we stopped giving it away for no return.......

Investment vs. Expense.