The Open Carry Argument

[protias]

Enough that people have decided it's worth CCing just to avoid the risk. Which makes it frequent in my book.

I don't mind answering people's questions. Most ask me questions on how to carry, what I carry, laws of carry, where to get training, etc.

 

[Dead Duck]

Just remember -

Criminals Conceal -- Open Carriers Reveal.


So-
Don't be a criminal - Reveal!







I don't see the argument.

 

[stephen87]

Much less than unlawful activity.



Sure, anyone can voice an opinion, but make sure to have facts in hand when you get called out on it.



No, not all the time. Most of the time people just ask me questions.

Obviously they call a lot more for UNlawful activity than lawful activity. You stated that people don't call for lawful activity, which we ALL know to be false. I can point you to 10 threads where someone had to police called on them for carrying a firearm, which is legal (normal caveats apply).


I agree. Back your statement that people don't call for lawful activity with fact. I'll wait.

Are you LEO? If not, you can't say that it doesn't get called. Just because it hasn't happened to you doesn't mean it doesn't happen. I can back that with facts.

Enough that people have decided it's worth CCing just to avoid the risk. Which makes it frequent in my book.

This.
When people don't think twice about OCing, due to infrequency of MWAG calls, then I'll agree with you.

I don't mind answering people's questions. Most ask me questions on how to carry, what I carry, laws of carry, where to get training, etc.

Are you LEO? I'm not arguing against OC at all, I'm arguing your point that people don't call when people OC. You're the one stating that he's posting what he THINKS happens and not what ACTUALLY happens, when it's quite the opposite. I OC. I've never had a MWAG call for me. I'm not naïve enough to think it doesn't happen because it's never happened to me. I've met more people with questions than I have met with complaints.

 

[nakinate]

Well, I'm not saying OC is wrong, but James Yeager and his friend says OCing is stupid. It's tactically unsound. So there.

 

[88GT]

I don't mind answering people's questions. Most ask me questions on how to carry, what I carry, laws of carry, where to get training, etc.

I don't mind people asking me questions either. But that wasn't what we were discussing.

Well, I'm not saying OC is wrong, but James Yeager and his friend says OCing is stupid. It's tactically unsound. So there.

im not sure someone whose tendencies have been the motivation for a complete phrase indicating someone has gone off--and beyond--the deepend is all that trustworthy.

 

[nakinate]

I don't mind people asking me questions either. But that wasn't what we were discussing.


im not sure someone whose tendencies have been the motivation for a complete phrase indicating someone has gone off--and beyond--the deepend is all that trustworthy.

Purple may or may not have been implied. Your choice.

 

[88GT]

Yes, I understood.

 

[SteveM4A1]

Well, I'm not saying OC is wrong, but James Yeager and his friend says OCing is stupid. It's tactically unsound. So there.

It is tactically unsound. I mean, you can't win a fight that never happens because your OCing is deterring it!

 

[lbk]

I usually keep mine covered, but just for my own comfort.

 

[KG1]

I usually keep mine covered, but just for my own comfort.

Alot of people that OC give the same reason.

 

[protias]

Obviously they call a lot more for UNlawful activity than lawful activity. You stated that people don't call for lawful activity, which we ALL know to be false. I can point you to 10 threads where someone had to police called on them for carrying a firearm, which is legal (normal caveats apply).


I agree. Back your statement that people don't call for lawful activity with fact. I'll wait.

Are you LEO? If not, you can't say that it doesn't get called. Just because it hasn't happened to you doesn't mean it doesn't happen. I can back that with facts.


This.
When people don't think twice about OCing, due to infrequency of MWAG calls, then I'll agree with you.


Are you LEO? I'm not arguing against OC at all, I'm arguing your point that people don't call when people OC. You're the one stating that he's posting what he THINKS happens and not what ACTUALLY happens, when it's quite the opposite. I OC. I've never had a MWAG call for me. I'm not naïve enough to think it doesn't happen because it's never happened to me. I've met more people with questions than I have met with complaints.

I am not LEO. I'm not sure how you got that I was a LEO. I never said I was and never insinuated it. I've had someone call the cops on me specifically once. My father and I were at a Burger King for 25 minutes. Cops never showed. Another time I was with a bunch of Wisconsin Carry folks at Starbucks (over a year ago), some called the cops, which the dispatcher called the store asked if anything was wrong, which there wasn't, and the cops never showed.

Another time, someone called the police in Madison for 5 people OCing, which the cops did show up.

a tale of 2 cities.wmv - YouTube

With all that said, some people just stop calling the police for real crime because they never show up! Milwaukee Police take 4 hours to respond to burglary call - TODAY'S TMJ4

 

[88GT]

Alot of people that OC give the same reason.

Yep, big black square block on curvy, round hip is uncomfortable as hell.

 

[stephen87]

I am not LEO. I'm not sure how you got that I was a LEO. I never said I was and never insinuated it. I've had someone call the cops on me specifically once. My father and I were at a Burger King for 25 minutes. Cops never showed. Another time I was with a bunch of Wisconsin Carry folks at Starbucks (over a year ago), some called the cops, which the dispatcher called the store asked if anything was wrong, which there wasn't, and the cops never showed.

Another time, someone called the police in Madison for 5 people OCing, which the cops did show up.

a tale of 2 cities.wmv - YouTube

With all that said, some people just stop calling the police for real crime because they never show up! Milwaukee Police take 4 hours to respond to burglary call - TODAY'S TMJ4

The reason I asked is because at one point 88GT said that people CC due to the frequency of MWAG calls and you said "I don't mind answering questions," which I wasn't sure if you meant answering their questions to you about carrying as a non-LEO or explaining that they don't need to call you due to the legalities of carrying. Just because officers don't show up, doesn't mean that they don't call. People still call, LEO just takes a while to get there sometimes. A burglary call, I could see that. Don't take this the wrong way, but there is a priority to calls. I did a ride along one night. We were headed to take a report for a burglary, we got pulled and dispatched to a domestic instead. We cleared that, headed out to take that report, and instead wound up going to help with someone resisting. By the time we got to it, another officer was already doing it and it was 2-3 hours later. I'd rather have the officer show up a couple of hours later for a burglary report than to have them show up and another officer injured or killed because he didn't have the adequate back up he needed. That's my opinion and take it for what it's worth, but I know their priority is for every last one of them to go home.

 

[protias]

The reason I asked is because at one point 88GT said that people CC due to the frequency of MWAG calls and you said "I don't mind answering questions," which I wasn't sure if you meant answering their questions to you about carrying as a non-LEO or explaining that they don't need to call you due to the legalities of carrying. Just because officers don't show up, doesn't mean that they don't call. People still call, LEO just takes a while to get there sometimes. A burglary call, I could see that. Don't take this the wrong way, but there is a priority to calls. I did a ride along one night. We were headed to take a report for a burglary, we got pulled and dispatched to a domestic instead. We cleared that, headed out to take that report, and instead wound up going to help with someone resisting. By the time we got to it, another officer was already doing it and it was 2-3 hours later. I'd rather have the officer show up a couple of hours later for a burglary report than to have them show up and another officer injured or killed because he didn't have the adequate back up he needed. That's my opinion and take it for what it's worth, but I know their priority is for every last one of them to go home.

Priority for them to go home? I thought their priority was to protect and serve... Oh wait...

Warren v. District of Columbia, 444 A.2d 1 (D.C. Ct. of Ap., 1981)
DeShaney v. Winnebago County Department of Social Services (109 S.Ct. 998, 1989; 489 U.S. 189 (1989))
Balistreri v. Pacifica Police Department (901 F.2d 696 9th Cir. 1990
Zinermon v. Burch (110 S.Ct. 975, 984 1990; 494 U.S. 113 (1990)
Riss v. New York, 240 N.E.2d 860 (N.Y.1968).
Hartzler v. City of San Jose, 46 Cal. App. 3d 6 (1st Dist. 1975)
South v. Maryland
Bowers v. Devito
Davidson v. City of Westminster
Westbrooks v. State of California

What's the point of police if they are not able to do their job? Sorry for the rant, but I get really irked when people say police want to go home at night. Sorry, everyone wants to be able to go home at night. The police signed up for a job they knew they'd face dangerous and violent people. The rest of us do too, but we often are all too often told we can't carry in certain places.

 

[stephen87]

An officer's "job" is protect and serve. To say their priority is protect and serve and no go home is misleading. How can you protect and serve if you can't go home? They have a job to do, yes. But when you have calls where someone's life is in jeopardy, that takes priority over someone's property, in my opinion. Woukd you rather the police take a longer response time because they were doing paperwork or because they were tied up saving a life? I know my answer.

 

[Rehab]

I was looking into this, and there was a gentleman I got into an argument with a few days ago, it's call deterrence.

 

[protias]

An officer's "job" is protect and serve. To say their priority is protect and serve and no go home is misleading. How can you protect and serve if you can't go home? They have a job to do, yes. But when you have calls where someone's life is in jeopardy, that takes priority over someone's property, in my opinion. Woukd you rather the police take a longer response time because they were doing paperwork or because they were tied up saving a life? I know my answer.

If someone broke into my house and I suspected they might still be in there, I am still in harms way and deserve to be protected just like the person who was/is assaulted.

 

[88GT]

If someone broke into my house and I suspected they might still be in there, I am still in harms way and deserve to be protected just like the person who was/is assaulted.

Do I read you correctly in that you believe someone else is responsible for coming to your rescue? Serious question. I want to make sure I understand exactly what you're saying instead of assuming it.

 

[stephen87]

If someone broke into my house and I suspected they might still be in there, I am still in harms way and deserve to be protected just like the person who was/is assaulted.

So, because you're not willing to clear your house, the police should come to you instead of one where there is a violent offense happening? Why do YOU deserve to be protected from the idea of someone being in a house over the officer who is fighting with someone or a person getting beaten by someone else? Sorry, I don't agree with your statement in the lease. A battery means that violence has already begun, whereas a burglary means someone entered your residence, whether you're there or not. Violence is ALWAYS the priority.

 

[88GT]

So, because you're not willing to clear your house, the police should come to you instead of one where there is a violent offense happening? Why do YOU deserve to be protected from the idea of someone being in a house over the officer who is fighting with someone or a person getting beaten by someone else? Sorry, I don't agree with your statement in the [STRIKE]lease[/STRIKE] least. A battery means that violence has already begun, whereas a burglary means someone entered your residence, whether you're there or not. Violence is ALWAYS the priority.

LOL, please tell me that was an auto-correct.

I'd go so far as to say that I don't believe LE has any moral duty to respond to crimes in progress. I understand some jurisdictions have made a statutory duty to respond, but I believe that each individual is the responsible party. Unfortunately, with this, I also expect not to be told I should just "leave it to LE" to deal with it. If I respond to an alleged crime in a manner that someone suspects my version of events, then put me before a jury of my peers and let them sort it out. Yes, I admit I adhere to a very primal version of self defense and justice. I freely admit it.