The Open Carry Argument

[SkullDaddy.45]

If someone broke into my house and I suspected they might still be in there, I am still in harms way and deserve to be protected just like the person who was/is assaulted.

The police have no constitutional duty to protect anyone. Sorry to say you do not deserve anything.

 

[protias]

Do I read you correctly in that you believe someone else is responsible for coming to your rescue? Serious question. I want to make sure I understand exactly what you're saying instead of assuming it.

Absolutely not. I am responsible for my well being. However, cops are paid to protect me if for some reason I'm forced to be unarmed (which seems to be often between my job and other prohibited places of carry).

The police have no constitutional duty to protect anyone. Sorry to say you do not deserve anything.

Yes, I already know that:

Priority for them to go home? I thought their priority was to protect and serve... Oh wait...

Warren v. District of Columbia, 444 A.2d 1 (D.C. Ct. of Ap., 1981)
DeShaney v. Winnebago County Department of Social Services (109 S.Ct. 998, 1989; 489 U.S. 189 (1989))
Balistreri v. Pacifica Police Department (901 F.2d 696 9th Cir. 1990
Zinermon v. Burch (110 S.Ct. 975, 984 1990; 494 U.S. 113 (1990)
Riss v. New York, 240 N.E.2d 860 (N.Y.1968).
Hartzler v. City of San Jose, 46 Cal. App. 3d 6 (1st Dist. 1975)
South v. Maryland
Bowers v. Devito
Davidson v. City of Westminster
Westbrooks v. State of California

What's the point of police if they are not able to do their job? Sorry for the rant, but I get really irked when people say police want to go home at night. Sorry, everyone wants to be able to go home at night. The police signed up for a job they knew they'd face dangerous and violent people. The rest of us do too, but we often are all too often told we can't carry in certain places.

So, because you're not willing to clear your house, the police should come to you instead of one where there is a violent offense happening? Why do YOU deserve to be protected from the idea of someone being in a house over the officer who is fighting with someone or a person getting beaten by someone else? Sorry, I don't agree with your statement in the lease. A battery means that violence has already begun, whereas a burglary means someone entered your residence, whether you're there or not. Violence is ALWAYS the priority.

Have you ever tried clearing your house? If you haven't, don't do it. Even if you have, there is still a lot of danger in doing it. There are lots of places a criminal can hide and attack you if you aren't careful. Best thing you can do is to stay put (if you are inside) or go to a neighbors' house if you are out.

 

[stephen87]

LOL, please tell me that was an auto-correct.

I'd go so far as to say that I don't believe LE has any moral duty to respond to crimes in progress. I understand some jurisdictions have made a statutory duty to respond, but I believe that each individual is the responsible party. Unfortunately, with this, I also expect not to be told I should just "leave it to LE" to deal with it. If I respond to an alleged crime in a manner that someone suspects my version of events, then put me before a jury of my peers and let them sort it out. Yes, I admit I adhere to a very primal version of self defense and justice. I freely admit it.

Yes, definitely auto-correct.

 

[actaeon277]

Absolutely not. I am responsible for my well being. However, cops are paid to protect me if for some reason I'm forced to be unarmed (which seems to be often between my job and other prohibited places of carry).

Actually, they are not paid to protect you.
They are paid to enforce the laws of the jurisdiction.

 

[protias]

Actually, they are not paid to protect you.
They are paid to enforce the laws of the jurisdiction.

You sure about that?

Police officer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Responsibilities of a police officer are varied, and may differ greatly from within one political context to another. Typical duties relate to keeping the peace, law enforcement, protection of people and property, and the investigation of crimes. Officers are expected to respond to a variety of situations that may arise while they are on duty. Rules and guidelines dictate how an officer should behave within the community, and in many contexts restrictions are placed on what the uniformed officer wears. In some countries, rules and procedures dictate that a police officer is obliged to intervene in a criminal incident, even if they are off-duty. Police officers in nearly all countries retain their lawful powers, while off duty.

 

[actaeon277]

You sure about that?

Police officer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Wikipedia is not a source acceptable in court.
Courts, up to Supreme Court, have ruled.
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/28/politics/28scotus.html?_r=0

SUPREME COURT RULING: Police Have No Duty To Protect The General Public#

court rules police are not required to protect - Yahoo Search Results

 

[actaeon277]

Since the Supreme court has ruled Police are not required to protect you, what purpose do they serve?

Winston & Strawn - Court Rules Ill. State Police Officials Not Required to Release Names and Addresses of Individuals Possessing FOID Cards

Supreme Court: Police Have No Liability for Failing to Enforce a Restraining Order - PoliceLink-

PJ Media » The Police Have No Obligation To Protect You. Yes, Really.

 

[protias]

Wikipedia is not a source acceptable in court.
Courts, up to Supreme Court, have ruled.
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/28/politics/28scotus.html?_r=0

SUPREME COURT RULING: Police Have No Duty To Protect The General Public#

court rules police are not required to protect - Yahoo Search Results

You asked for a definition of what they do, not what the courts have ruled, and I've already pointed those court cases out. Did you not read the thread?

 

[actaeon277]

You asked for a definition of what they do, not what the courts have ruled, and I've already pointed those court cases out. Did you not read the thread?

What they do, is enforce the laws of the jurisdiction

 

[stephen87]

Let's use a real source for a definition: Merriam-Webster.com.

[h=2][SUP]1[/SUP]po·lice[/h] transitive verb \pə-ˈlēs\

: to control and keep order in (an area) by the use of police or military forces
: to control (something) by making sure that rules and regulations are being followed


1
archaic : govern
2
: to control, regulate, or keep in order by use of police

3
: to make clean and put in order

4
a : to supervise the operation, execution, or administration of to prevent or detect and prosecute violations of rules and regulations
b : to exercise such supervision over the policies and activities of

5
: to perform the functions of a police force in or over



[h=2][SUP]2[/SUP]police[/h] noun, often attributive

: the people or the department of people who enforce laws, investigate crimes, and make arrests


1
a : the internal organization or regulation of a political unit through exercise of governmental powers especially with respect to general comfort, health, morals, safety, or prosperity
b : control and regulation of affairs affecting the general order and welfare of any unit or area
c : the system of laws for effecting such control
2
a : the department of government concerned primarily with maintenance of public order, safety, and health and enforcement of laws and possessing executive, judicial, and legislative powers
b : the department of government charged with prevention, detection, and prosecution of public nuisances and crimes

3
a : police force
b plural : police officers

4
a : a private organization resembling a police force <campus police>
b plural : the members of a private police organization

5
a : the action or process of cleaning and putting in order
b : military personnel detailed to perform this function

6
: one attempting to regulate or censor a specified field or activity <the fashion police>



Now, what were we saying?

 

[protias]

So they don't protect property and/or persons? It is right in the definitions you provided. In addition, here are some more:

What is the Law Enforcement Oath of Honor?

Police officers take risks and suffer inconveniences to protect the lives, defend civil liberties, secure the safety of fellow citizens, and they endure such risks and tolerate such inconveniences on behalf of strangers.

To protect and serve all - Officer.com

When taking an oath to serve and protect, police officers promise to preserve the dignity and respect the rights of all individuals, and to act with honesty, courtesy and regard for the welfare of others. Unfortunately, this pledge sometimes puts officers at the homes of people they don't particularly care for, people who are less than truthful, and people who may even be guilty of unspeakable acts. But this oath requires officers to serve and protect, even when their heart isn't necessarily in it.

So how again is it not the job/vocation/function/etc of police to protect people and their property?

 

[lonehoosier]

This thread is going downhill.



Anyone up for some popcorn, I have plenty?

 

[88GT]

So they don't protect property and/or persons? It is right in the definitions you provided. In addition, here are some more:

What is the Law Enforcement Oath of Honor?



To protect and serve all - Officer.com



So how again is it not the job/vocation/function/etc of police to protect people and their property?

Most of the LEO in this country will, by choice, take action in the course of their duties--those duties being the enforcement of the laws of the jurisdiction--that protect the property and persons of that jurisdiction. But unless the jurisdiction has statutorily required it, or unless departmental rules have required it, they are not obligated to do anything more than apprehend the law-breaker and pass him off to the next step in due process. Of the 3 times I have called police for property damage due to non-consentual entry, only once did the responding officer enter the residence to determine if the offender was still present (ironically enough, it wasn't property I owned or had a vested interest in). So I guess that means not only did they not protect my property, but they didn't protect me, because they left me open to walking in on the guy had he been hiding somewhere.

Your "sources" are generic. It would be like arguing that doctors' roles are to save lives. Well, no. The doctor's role is to treat the disease/injury. The goal is that by doing so the person lives longer, but the doctor isn't held accountable for that particular outcome. Doctors do save lives, but that is the consequence of their primary goal, not the goal in itself.

 

[actaeon277]

So they don't protect property and/or persons? It is right in the definitions you provided. In addition, here are some more:

What is the Law Enforcement Oath of Honor?



To protect and serve all - Officer.com



So how again is it not the job/vocation/function/etc of police to protect people and their property?

It is my JOB to fix electronics and instrumentation, so that my company can make money.
But it is NOT my JOB to make money for my company.

 

[protias]

It is my JOB to fix electronics and instrumentation, so that my company can make money.
But it is NOT my JOB to make money for my company.

Actually, you do help the company make money. If you didn't do your job, then the electronics wouldn't work, the rest of the employees cannot work, the company cannot make money.

Better analogy, is it right to protect yourself and your property, though it may not be legal (depending on what state you live in). This is what we are discussing. Cops are to serve and protect, both property and life, though the courts have ruled otherwise. I don't know how you are not understanding what I'm saying.

 

[Rhoadmar]

Actually, you do help the company make money. If you didn't do your job, then the electronics wouldn't work, the rest of the employees cannot work, the company cannot make money.

Better analogy, is it right to protect yourself and your property, though it may not be legal (depending on what state you live in). This is what we are discussing. Cops are to serve and protect, both property and life, though the courts have ruled otherwise. I don't know how you are not understanding what I'm saying.

Are you saying ideally this is what is expected? The definition of their role is to enforce laws of a jurisdiction. The courts have ruled that they are not required to protect your life or property. These things do occur in the course of enforcing the law and from all Leos of good conscience. If a jurisdiction's laws require they protect a citizens life and property then in that jurisdiction that is their job.

 

[88GT]

Actually, you do help the company make money. If you didn't do your job, then the electronics wouldn't work, the rest of the employees cannot work, the company cannot make money.

Better analogy, is it right to protect yourself and your property, though it may not be legal (depending on what state you live in). This is what we are discussing. Cops are to serve and protect, both property and life, though the courts have ruled otherwise. I don't know how you are not understanding what I'm saying.

You are equating the action (job) with the consequence. The job is the action. The consequence is the profitability. actaeon can successfully fulfill his job obligations while the company simultaneously loses money. To use the LE example, LE can successfully enforce the laws and in the process people still get hurt (sometimes by the direct action of that enforcement :noob.

 

[danielson]

The following may not apply to anyone here FYI...
Some people are dense as a stump. Go down the road to your local police station, stand outside and scream help. Or if your feeling ballsy, scream help and fire a blank. Watch what happens when they are not defending and protecting you. I take offense to people like this, it really says alot about your character when there are people who take risks on a daily basis, because they take the protect and serve slogan alittle differently that you, and all you have for them is disrespect. Cops are people too, not everyone is an *******, just because youve met a couple. Or, more likely, Its not THEIR fault, that you broke the law and had a run in with them. Most of the people I know, who dislike cops, are the latter. If you drank too much and decided to drive the car, or you decided to drive too fast, or you decided to smoke pot and got busted, be a man, admit your mistake, and dont place blame on anyone else but the one who deserves it.

There are alot of great people out there, many I know personally, who will put themselves into great personal risk in order to help someone theyve never met.
Police officers, Firemen, and EMS responders/EMT's deserve more respect than they get from the self centered people in this country, who are so quick to judge others that they forget to judge themselves first.

 

[actaeon277]

The following may not apply to anyone here FYI...
Some people are dense as a stump. Go down the road to your local police station, stand outside and scream help. Or if your feeling ballsy, scream help and fire a blank. Watch what happens when they are not defending and protecting you. I take offense to people like this, it really says alot about your character when there are people who take risks on a daily basis, because they take the protect and serve slogan alittle differently that you, and all you have for them is disrespect. Cops are people too, not everyone is an *******, just because youve met a couple. Or, more likely, Its not THEIR fault, that you broke the law and had a run in with them. Most of the people I know, who dislike cops, are the latter. If you drank too much and decided to drive the car, or you decided to drive too fast, or you decided to smoke pot and got busted, be a man, admit your mistake, and dont place blame on anyone else but the one who deserves it.

There are alot of great people out there, many I know personally, who will put themselves into great personal risk in order to help someone theyve never met.
Police officers, Firemen, and EMS responders/EMT's deserve more respect than they get from the self centered people in this country, who are so quick to judge others that they forget to judge themselves first.

I'm not sure where you equate "it has been ruled that the police are there to enforce the law" to "I hate cops".
Cause that's not true.

It is not a cashier's job to protect your life. Some might. Some might not. But that is not disrespecting cashiers.

 

[danielson]

re-read the first line. If you feel it doesnt apply, dont pay any attention to it. I hear cop bashing everyday, from seemingly everywhere. While this thread is not really bashing Emergency responders, I felt the need to post it. If someone goes out of their way to do something thats right, or noble, or even nice, its not like it suddenly doesnt matter, just because its not in the job description. This applies to all professions, even those dont require assuming great personal risk.