The Official Redbrush/WSSC IDPA Thread

[Grelber]

Appendix TWO
Page 41 of your "IDPA Office Rule Book" if you're reading along at home.

Which reminds me, next time we shoot at WSSC or at RB I'm going to deliberately do the page 42 thing (round dumping) so somebody can give me a FTDR and we can get that glass ceiling broken. Just need to get to a course where throwing that extra is an advantage.

Fun and safe match Saturday!!

 

[stiwssc]

What were the courses?

Rinoroach--- can you forward him a copy of the COF's?

 

[DustyDawg48]

Which reminds me, next time we shoot at WSSC or at RB I'm going to deliberately do the page 42 thing (round dumping) so somebody can give me a FTDR and we can get that glass ceiling broken. Just need to get to a course where throwing that extra is an advantage.

Fun and safe match Saturday!!

Just remember that an SO cannot give a penalty based solely upon their opinion that you intentionally dumped rounds, especially if it is only one extra round. Unless you verbalized 'I am going to take 3 shots here so I can reload there...' How can an SO call it for an FTDR or even a procedural? If IDPA is to simulate real-world situations then putting extra rounds in people, since there is no scientific proof that 2 rounds absolutely equals target neutralized, is tactically sound! I got your back, Jeff!

 

[looney2ns]

Man what a week for guns. Not only did I get my 625 back, checked the mail a minute ago and Jen's uplula (affectionately called in our home "the oompa loompa") came in as well. We put it right to work on the every mag from the Shield to M&P. This could quite possibly be the greatest accessory for firearms ever made

We are slowly getting you into the 21st century.
Your manly hands are doomed to softness.

 

[looney2ns]

Wow, that IDPA match in the Cabela's parking lot was AWESOME. The Gunny was really showing the world how to handle the backup SOG knives during a defensive situation.

The po-po directing traffic didn't seem amused at all.

NOTE: No tupperware guns were harmed during this event. All brass had to be left on the ground so they could be sold in the bargain den.

An extremely rare sighting occured as well. I vaguely remember seeing such items around here in the past. There was all sorts of boxes marked AMMO actually on the shelves. Ready to be purchased and abused.

 

[DustyDawg48]

Wow, that IDPA match in the Cabela's parking lot was AWESOME. The Gunny was really showing the world how to handle the backup SOG knives during a defensive situation.

The po-po directing traffic didn't seem amused at all.

NOTE: No tupperware guns were harmed during this event. All brass had to be left on the ground so they could be sold in the bargain den.

An extremely rare sighting occured as well. I vaguely remember seeing such items around here in the past. There was all sorts of boxes marked AMMO actually on the shelves. Ready to be purchased and abused.

Yeah, and they even had these things...they were black...and I think they were supposed to use those so-called 'ammo' things.

 

[Grelber]

Just remember that an SO cannot give a penalty based solely upon their opinion that you intentionally dumped rounds, especially if it is only one extra round. Unless you verbalized 'I am going to take 3 shots here so I can reload there...' How can an SO call it for an FTDR or even a procedural? If IDPA is to simulate real-world situations then putting extra rounds in people, since there is no scientific proof that 2 rounds absolutely equals target neutralized, is tactically sound! I got your back, Jeff!

We disagree, but that is not important and really even more unimportant since the rules are supposed to be revised in the near future.

In general I'm finding that I can take the games too seriously and that is probably an excellent sign for me to back away a bit.

I do like the idea of taking the penalty and fessing up to it though. Just as a way of making sure folks know that dumping rounds is outside of the rules and that a 20 second penalty does not change life as we know it or even cause severe warts in most cases.

 

[sbcman]

OK, let me throw this one out to see what ya'll think.

It's pretty obvious when round dumping is used on cardboard targets. But, let's say you've got some steel in a match that either 1) You've seen some rounds struggle to get down and, once you leave the shooting position that made the steel available, you can't go back to it, so you give it 2 to be safe or 2) You'd like to push it down faster because it activates a target. Let's pretend that in both cases an advantage to reloading is given. What's the call? FTDR or Prudent Decision?

I'm not setting a trap, just wondering what ya'll think about these specific scenarios. No dog in the race for me, 45 takes down steel easily and round dumping with a revolver- well, that's just comical.

 

[DustyDawg48]

OK, let me throw this one out to see what ya'll think.

It's pretty obvious when round dumping is used on cardboard targets. But, let's say you've got some steel in a match that either 1) You've seen some rounds struggle to get down and, once you leave the shooting position that made the steel available, you can't go back to it, so you give it 2 to be safe or 2) You'd like to push it down faster because it activates a target. Let's pretend that in both cases an advantage to reloading is given. What's the call? FTDR or Prudent Decision?

I'm not setting a trap, just wondering what ya'll think about these specific scenarios. No dog in the race for me, 45 takes down steel easily and round dumping with a revolver- well, that's just comical.

There in lies the problem with the round dumping rules. There isn't an official rule that says X-Number of rounds fired in rapid succession prior to a reload that should have been taken during the course of fire as either a tactical reload or reload with retention shall be judged as excessive and contrary to the spirit of the game. That take doesn't exist and it clearly states in the book that you may engage a target with additional rounds in a Vicker's scored COF. Of course it also talks about 'round dumping' but unless you hear the shooter specifically state that they are going to purposefully take the extra shot I don't think you can issue the penalty based solely upon the SO's gut feeling on the matter. If I shoot that same 8 target COF again and in the same manner (the backwards-walking course) and somebody said I was round dumping by taking a single extra shot, what if I respond by saying ' I was shooting so fast that I felt like I missed one shot.' How can you call it a procedural or an FTDR? If you start to judge/score/penalize each individual shooter based on how well you know them instead of by an official rule with concrete parameters... The round du ping rule is poorly written and requires the SO to be a mind reader and it needs to be changed.

 

[lj98]

Great match yesterday. Like some of you, I enjoyed the relative simplicity of the layout. I enjoy moving targets, but every now and then, It is just as fun to simply move and shoot.
That being said, it would have been even more enjoyable had I brought my "A" game. I am pretty sure I was the only one to hit a non-threat and almost forget to hit one of the steel targets. I'm also glad that the definition of "round dumping" does not include tossing your full magazine three feet in front of you.
See you all next month.

 

[DustyDawg48]

Great match yesterday. Like some of you, I enjoyed the relative simplicity of the layout. I enjoy moving targets, but every now and then, It is just as fun to simply move and shoot.
That being said, it would have been even more enjoyable had I brought my "A" game. I am pretty sure I was the only one to hit a non-threat and almost forget to hit one of the steel targets. I'm also glad that the definition of "round dumping" does not include tossing your full magazine three feet in front of you.
See you all next month.

LOL everybody that has ever geared up and attended a match has had one of those types of matches!

 

[sbcman]

There in lies the problem with the round dumping rules. There isn't an official rule that says X-Number of rounds fired in rapid succession prior to a reload that should have been taken during the course of fire as either a tactical reload or reload with retention shall be judged as excessive and contrary to the spirit of the game. That take doesn't exist and it clearly states in the book that you may engage a target with additional rounds in a Vicker's scored COF. Of course it also talks about 'round dumping' but unless you hear the shooter specifically state that they are going to purposefully take the extra shot I don't think you can issue the penalty based solely upon the SO's gut feeling on the matter. If I shoot that same 8 target COF again and in the same manner (the backwards-walking course) and somebody said I was round dumping by taking a single extra shot, what if I respond by saying ' I was shooting so fast that I felt like I missed one shot.' How can you call it a procedural or an FTDR? If you start to judge/score/penalize each individual shooter based on how well you know them instead of by an official rule with concrete parameters... The round du ping rule is poorly written and requires the SO to be a mind reader and it needs to be changed.

Soooooo....I'm taking it you're cool with the extra shots on steel in my scenarios

Great match yesterday. Like some of you, I enjoyed the relative simplicity of the layout. I enjoy moving targets, but every now and then, It is just as fun to simply move and shoot.
That being said, it would have been even more enjoyable had I brought my "A" game. I am pretty sure I was the only one to hit a non-threat and almost forget to hit one of the steel targets. I'm also glad that the definition of "round dumping" does not include tossing your full magazine three feet in front of you.
See you all next month.

I, for one, enjoyed the mag flinging. A few feet more and you would have put it through the target, which I would have given you extra points for

 

[DustyDawg48]

Soooooo....I'm taking it you're cool with the extra shots on steel in my scenarios



I, for one, enjoyed the mag flinging. A few feet more and you would have put it through the target, which I would have given you extra points for

Absolutely! Putting a round or two on a steel that could potentially be trouble or two quicken it's pace is sound. But if you'd call taking a single extra shot on a target 'round dumping' because a competitor was able to reload at a more favorable point, then any shot at any point in any course, if it led to any advantage and was deemed 'extra' would also have to be considered 'round dumping'. It is one of those rules that exists because of good intentions but is hard to properly enforce because they can't clearly define what a round dump is. If people are genuinely against it, then you make every course of fire Limited Vickers and you've solved the problem.

 

[sbcman]

If people are genuinely against it, then you make every course of fire Limited Vickers and you've solved the problem.

That's one thing about shooting revolver- just about every course is shot limited

 

[DustyDawg48]

That's one thing about shooting revolver- just about every course is shot limited

LOL That might be the hidden perk of being a revolvers shooter; you can easily weigh in on the round dumping talk an not have to worry too much about being called out on it. Not that it can't happen; if you put 2 paper targets, a reactive steel dropper than in turns activates an appearing/disappearing target you force the revolver guy to either put 3 on each paper before the reload or into a RWR before engaging the steel.

I think this is good healthy discussion and hopefully they can clarify the rule book, do it once without a ton of amendments to the book after it is published, and put to rest any significant gray areas that have caused trouble in the past.

 

[looney2ns]

Great match yesterday. Like some of you, I enjoyed the relative simplicity of the layout. I enjoy moving targets, but every now and then, It is just as fun to simply move and shoot.
That being said, it would have been even more enjoyable had I brought my "A" game. I am pretty sure I was the only one to hit a non-threat and almost forget to hit one of the steel targets. I'm also glad that the definition of "round dumping" does not include tossing your full magazine three feet in front of you.
See you all next month.

Heck, I round dump all the time, because I suck at hitting the required target.

 

[DustyDawg48]

Heck, I round dump all the time, because I suck at hitting the required target.

LOL

With the current ammo situation you'd have to assume that nobody is really willing to dump too many extras!

 

[Kisada]

LOL

With the current ammo situation you'd have to assume that nobody is really willing to dump too many extras!

Indeed.

 

[DustyDawg48]

I am just blown away by the complete lack of anyone with bullets for sale! Agh! I'm not hurting but jeez!

 

[Grelber]

Good stuff I thought, email from after the steels shoot at RB Sunday.



"Match results are NOT attached, because I want everyone to read this, and not rush off to check results.

I’m proud of my son Clayton.

During the match this past weekend, I had the distinct displeasure of disqualifying him after he potentially launched a round over the berm during a course of fire. (It was a close call, and I’m not sure if it went over the berm, but the look on this face and the “Whoops” that accompanied it made it clear he did not intend to fire that round when he did.) It was his first DQ (disqualification), and though he initially took it hard, after processing it a few minutes, he came right back and worked the rest of the match, acknowledging it was a valid call and taking full responsibility for getting just a little too casual with the safety rules in his desire to shoot quickly.

I bring this up because several of us “old-timers” are getting concerned about lax attitudes about safety rules we’re seeing at our matches. Please don’t get me wrong. We love having a lot of new shooters. We really do. We love this sport and want to see it grow. The problem is that us old guys just assume everyone has been as drilled on safety rules and match etiquette as we have, and we haven’t gone out of our way to teach it. That is my fault. And we can’t expect new shooters to know these policies if we don’t teach them.

So please read this with the same attitude that Clayton took toward his DQ. None of us are infallible and we all need to hold each other accountable for safety because my lack of safety discipline might not just endanger me, but you as well. I want everyone to be more aware of safety issues, and more direct in calling attention to safety violations behind the line (preventing violations on the line is the RO’s job, so he’s not necessarily watching what’s going on behind the line).

We’re not trying to hurt feelings or offend. We’re just trying to have a safe match for all. One bad accident in today’s political climate and our match, if not our entire range, could be gone. So please, read this in the spirit it is intended. And if you recognize yourself, don’t think I’m only fussing at you. I’m just asking that everyone be more aware, and don’t be offended if someone points out a safety issue to you. And you shouldn’t be shy about pointing out potential safety issues to others. There may be only one RO on your squad, but everyone is a safety officer.

FWIW, I once managed to drop a loaded gun between strings at an IPSC/USPSA match where I was the match director. The RO wanted to let it slide, and I insisted on being disqualified, per the rules. Point being, I’ve DQ’d myself. I’ve DQ’d my son. We can’t play favorites when safety is involved. We all have to live by these rules to keep our sport safe and thriving.

Hopefully everyone knows the four rules of gun-safety, and perhaps surprisingly, I’m not going to repeat them here because I fear people will think, “I know that,” and stop reading. If you don’t know them, look them up. I’m partial to Jeff Cooper’s version, here: safetyrules.

I really want to focus this newsletter on “Match Etiquette,” and how it relates to gun safety.

We run a cold range. There should be no loaded weapons behind the firing line (carry guns, etc.) I don’t think that’s been an issue.

Unless on the firing line under RO supervision, all pistols should be unloaded, in a holster, with no magazine inserted, or unloaded/magazine out/action open in a gun case. Long guns should be cased, secured in a cart, or laying on a table unloaded with action open until it’s your turn to shoot.

All this boils really just boils down to no “show and tell” during the match. If we can implement this, then most everything else will take care of itself. We saw lots of rifles being carried around this weekend, muzzles constantly sweeping bystanders, and/or rifle butt on the ground with a thumb on the muzzle. Likewise we saw some pistols (mostly .22’s, because they don’t have a holster) being carried around without a case between stages, which again makes it easy to accidentally point at someone with a finger on the trigger.

(Yes, I know it’s unloaded. Or at least it’s supposed to be. But most everyone who has sustained an “accidental” gunshot had it happen with a gun that was supposed to be unloaded. And most of us are carrying around a bunch of loaded magazines. We just don’t need to be taking chances with a bunch of weapon manipulation going on behind the line, while the RO is busy running shooters. FWIW, I’ve RO’d at a match when someone with a .45 had an accidental discharge in the gravel behind the bay cover. Thank God no one was injured, but I can tell you the silence after that boom was deafening.)

If you really want to have a show-and-tell session with your buddies, the best time is before the match starts, or after it is over.

With regard to match etiquette, please help your RO’s keep the match running smoothly and quickly by painting targets, picking up brass, etc. When I’m working as an RO, and then find myself needing to pick brass and paint targets and just generally wear myself out, while everyone else just shoots and socializes, I get irritated. I may not show it, but I am. I don’t know of any RO’s who don’t get irritated in that scenario. And irritated RO’s burn out quickly, leaving us short-handed. Make an effort to help out, up to and including learning basic rules and commands to work as an RO yourself. I assure you those of us who routinely work as RO’s will not be threatened if more people step up to do that job.

Also, while not safety related, from a match etiquette standpoint, I would strongly discourage the practice known as “shoot and scoot.” I know we all sometimes need to leave a match quickly, especially if its running overtime, but nothing disheartens RO’s quite as much as watching each squad member shoot his final stage, pack his gear, and drive off, leaving the RO and the last couple of shooters to tear down the stage, put everything away, and police the range before packing their own gear and heading home for the day.

We saw a lot of that this month, and I’m assuming it’s just because many of our new shooters don’t realize this is considered poor etiquette. These matches are not an entertainment venue with paid staff. We are all volunteers with families, and want to wrap up and get home just like everyone else. So please, hang around until your squad has finished the stage, help clean up, and get everyone home more quickly.

Finally, for those who have read this far, I’ll reveal a tidbit. My disqualification of my son was an error on my part. Back in my days as an IPSC/USPSA RO, firing a round that left the bay was grounds for disqualification (and it still is in USPSA matches). However, this is not in the SCSA rulebook (though it should be in my opinion). I told Clayton about this last night, and he handled it like an adult, stating that he understood my call, and agreed with it, regardless of my error. He had done something unsafe and needed to have that pointed out. I hope all of you will take my comments in that same spirit. It’s just one more aspect of learning to shoot quickly, accurately, and safely. None of those skills come naturally; we have to learn all three. Shame on us old-timers for only focusing on the first two.

Match results should be out in the next couple of days. Kris has the scores entered. I just have to finalize all the reports, and I wanted your full attention for this email.

--Gene "