The 2016 General Election Thread

[jamil]

How did he spend 18m without buying a single ad?


FEC snapshot of July:

CLINTON:

Raised: $52.3m
Spent: $38.2m
Cash on hand: $58.5m

TRUMP:

Raised: $36.7m
Spent: $18.4m
Cash on hand: $38.4m

Well, there's the story about him paying himself back on the loan he loaned himself to run for President.

 

[BugI02]

And this too.


Even deist have moral compasses. And as far as I know, no of those I quoted were deist.

I fear among some posters herein 'Deist' should probably be capitalized; it is meant to be an insult, like 'Trumpkin'

 

[BugI02]

Are Christians supposed to do into others and love their neighbors or refuse service to gays?

We can refuse to 'service' gays because "No means no!"

 

[BugI02]

My point is that the founders weren't all Christians yet they managed to put together a good form of government. Christianity and morality shouldn't be conflated, they've been at odds for centuries.

Au contraire. Christianity is the underpinning of many of our views or systems of morality.

"Morality" refers to personal or cultural values, codes of conduct or social mores. It does not connote objective claims of right or wrong, but only refers to that which is considered right or wrong.

If you stray too far from Christian values you can wind up with Chivalry or Divine Right of Kings or even Sharia

 

[BugI02]

I'm saying morality is ever shifting and Christian morals have as well. I'm saying they shift in a sort of unison but that we shouldn't pretend Christianity has historically had morality down pat.

As for the old testament, were gods people behaving immoraly back then or has God's morality shifted with the ages?

What did Moses find when he first came down from the mountain

 

[Jludo]

What did Moses find when he first came down from the mountain

You're going to have a tough time defending objective morality of Moses and ancient Israelites. Less you can deliver a strong defense of genocide and slavery.

 

[Jludo]

Former CIA director Michael Hayden said he will be voting 3rd party. Gave an interesting reason I'd not considered before, saying:

"I get it. Somebody is going to win, but you know, no matter who it is, for these two, I'm hoping they don't think they're sweeping into office with some powerful mandate. "

 

[Jludo]

Au contraire. Christianity is the underpinning of many of our views or systems of morality.

"Morality" refers to personal or cultural values, codes of conduct or social mores. It does not connote objective claims of right or wrong, but only refers to that which is considered right or wrong.

If you stray too far from Christian values you can wind up with Chivalry or Divine Right of Kings or even Sharia

If you look at Christian values of the early church you find something similar to Sharia in treatment of non believers. If there's an objective truth and one true religion I would hope it's values and morals wouldn't be contingent on which period of time you happen to live.

 

[printcraft]

http://graphics.latimes.com/usc-presidential-poll-dashboard/

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

If you look at Christian values of the early church you find something similar to Sharia in treatment of non believers. If there's an objective truth and one true religion I would hope it's values and morals wouldn't be contingent on which period of time you happen to live.

People are people. We have a way of screwing up what should be so simple. Christianity is no different. Many choose to view what people who claim to be Christians do as a verdict on what Jesus was sent to earth to do for us. That is unfortunate because God's word and Jesus's redemptive power is the same no matter what period we live in. The Truth is there always and our human frailties demonstrate, over the years, just how difficult it is for us to refrain from being chained to our earthly whims, pursuits, and idols and live the way He has instructed us.

 

[foszoe]

Please point me to a document within the early Church instructing Christians on how to interact with non believers that approaches the universal authority of Sharia in Islam.

I have never encountered such a document and would be very curious as to its contents and its authority to bind Christians to its contents.

Thanks!

If you look at Christian values of the early church you find something similar to Sharia in treatment of non believers. If there's an objective truth and one true religion I would hope it's values and morals wouldn't be contingent on which period of time you happen to live.

 

[Jludo]

Please point me to a document within the early Church instructing Christians on how to interact with non believers that approaches the universal authority of Sharia in Islam.

I have never encountered such a document and would be very curious as to its contents and its authority to bind Christians to its contents.

Thanks!

The bible lays out in no uncertain terms God ordering his people to stone non believers to death. Now you can tell me how I'm supposed to interpret that or explain how, with Jesus, God gave a new set of Morals to live by but the plain text does exist of God giving a direct order. It's all In your interpretation but don't pretend it doesn't exist.

 

[caverjamie]

I've read through a portion of the old testament. I can remember where a believer(Jew) was stoned for ignoring one of God's laws, and where some Jews stoned a Christian, but I don't recall what you are referring to. Most of the non-believers I remember killed in the bible would have been the ones God told them to fight when they first fought for the land they are now living in. Anyways, it's too bad there wasn't a threat discussing religion somewhere before this one...

 

[Libertarian01]

Please point me to a document within the early Church instructing Christians on how to interact with non believers that approaches the universal authority of Sharia in Islam.

I have never encountered such a document and would be very curious as to its contents and its authority to bind Christians to its contents.

Thanks!

In a speech to the Council of Clermont in 1095 Pope Urban thus spake, "All who die by the way, whether by land or by sea, or in battle against the pagans, shall have immediate remission of sins. This I grant them through the power of God with which I am invested. O what a disgrace if such a despised and base race, which worships demons, should conquer a people which has the faith of omnipotent God and is made glorious with the name of Christ! With what reproaches will the Lord overwhelm us if you do not aid those who, with us, profess the Christian religion! Let those who have been accustomed unjustly to wage private warfare against the faithful now go against the infidels and end with victory this war which should have been begun long ago. Let those who for a long time, have been robbers, now become knights. Let those who have been fighting against their brothers and relatives now fight in a proper way against the barbarians. Let those who have been serving as mercenaries for small pay now obtain the eternal reward. Let those who have been wearing themselves out in both body and soul now work for a double honor. Behold! on this side will be the sorrowful and poor, on that, the rich; on this side, the enemies of the Lord, on that, his friends. Let those who go not put off the journey, but rent their lands and collect money for their expenses; and as soon as winter is over and spring comes, let hem eagerly set out on the way with God as their guide." Medieval Sourcebook: Urban II: Speech at Council of Clermont, 1095, according to Fulcherof Chartres

You shall note that dying to destroy the evil scum that is not Christian guarantee's heaven, and as the Pope was/is the word of God on earth his speech was as good as it gets.

"The crusaders entry into the Holy City was an orgy of looting and killing of Muslims and Jews. One crusader reported in his journal, 'The amount of blood that they shed on that day is incredible... Some of our men (and this was more merciful) cut off the heads of their enemies; other shot them with arrows, so that they fell from the towers; others tortured them longer by casting them into flames. Piles of heads, hands, and feet were to be seen in the streets of the city... It was a just and splendid judgement of God that the place should be filled with the blood of the unbelievers, since it had suffered so long from their blasphemies.'" (A Brief History of Western Man, Greer, 3rd Ed, Pg #223)

While this may not be in written form, the word of the Pope certainly held the same authority. And from the crusaders account he certainly got the message.

I don't believe early (~50AD - 400AD) Christians would have had the same mindset, but the Holy Catholic Church soon changed that! As the church was born out of the issue of Marcion writing the first bible and not liking his choices, thus began the process of unifying doctrine and consolidating POWER! As the centuries passed that power became entrenched and the desire to grow that power also began to take hold. It became only natural that all unbelievers be converted or destroyed.

Regards,

Doug

 

[foszoe]

The bible lays out in no uncertain terms God ordering his people to stone non believers to death. Now you can tell me how I'm supposed to interpret that or explain how, with Jesus, God gave a new set of Morals to live by but the plain text does exist of God giving a direct order. It's all In your interpretation but don't pretend it doesn't exist.

Is the Sharia the Koran? I don't equate these two.

Is the Bible, especially the OT, the Early Church? I don't equate those two either, nor would most secular scholars or Jews or Christians.

Your claim was the early church treated non believers much like the Sharia. I am asking for the proof of that claim. the Early Church is most commonly accepted to begin circa 90 AD. There are plenty of documents put forth in the early Church. I am simply asking you to put forth the one that does spells out what you claim.

If you want to say the Old Testament contained elements that approached Sharia Law that's a completely different claim.

I would be most interested to hear how you think a pacifistic tribe would have survived and maintained its cultural identity circa 6000 BC. Are there any examples of such tribes that continued in existence? That would also be a different but interesting discussion.

 

[foszoe]

I would simply make the following claim.

Most would not say the early Church included such late dates as 1095. Most would place the Early Church period between 90 AD to the 4th Century.

I would say one could say the Early Church period extended through the First 7 ecumenical councils. (8th Century)

I would also say anything post Schism, when the Pope assumed his universal role in the West (1054 AD) is definitely NOT the early Church as there was a clear break in unity by that time.

I would make the claim that the Orthodox Church is the continuation of the Early Church still in existence to this day but that is an entirely different discussion most likely belonging in a different thread

In a speech to the Council of Clermont in 1095 Pope Urban thus spake, "All who die by the way, whether by land or by sea, or in battle against the pagans, shall have immediate remission of sins. This I grant them through the power of God with which I am invested. O what a disgrace if such a despised and base race, which worships demons, should conquer a people which has the faith of omnipotent God and is made glorious with the name of Christ! With what reproaches will the Lord overwhelm us if you do not aid those who, with us, profess the Christian religion! Let those who have been accustomed unjustly to wage private warfare against the faithful now go against the infidels and end with victory this war which should have been begun long ago. Let those who for a long time, have been robbers, now become knights. Let those who have been fighting against their brothers and relatives now fight in a proper way against the barbarians. Let those who have been serving as mercenaries for small pay now obtain the eternal reward. Let those who have been wearing themselves out in both body and soul now work for a double honor. Behold! on this side will be the sorrowful and poor, on that, the rich; on this side, the enemies of the Lord, on that, his friends. Let those who go not put off the journey, but rent their lands and collect money for their expenses; and as soon as winter is over and spring comes, let hem eagerly set out on the way with God as their guide." Medieval Sourcebook: Urban II: Speech at Council of Clermont, 1095, according to Fulcherof Chartres

You shall note that dying to destroy the evil scum that is not Christian guarantee's heaven, and as the Pope was/is the word of God on earth his speech was as good as it gets.

"The crusaders entry into the Holy City was an orgy of looting and killing of Muslims and Jews. One crusader reported in his journal, 'The amount of blood that they shed on that day is incredible... Some of our men (and this was more merciful) cut off the heads of their enemies; other shot them with arrows, so that they fell from the towers; others tortured them longer by casting them into flames. Piles of heads, hands, and feet were to be seen in the streets of the city... It was a just and splendid judgement of God that the place should be filled with the blood of the unbelievers, since it had suffered so long from their blasphemies.'" (A Brief History of Western Man, Greer, 3rd Ed, Pg #223)

While this may not be in written form, the word of the Pope certainly held the same authority. And from the crusaders account he certainly got the message.

I don't believe early (~50AD - 400AD) Christians would have had the same mindset, but the Holy Catholic Church soon changed that! As the church was born out of the issue of Marcion writing the first bible and not liking his choices, thus began the process of unifying doctrine and consolidating POWER! As the centuries passed that power became entrenched and the desire to grow that power also began to take hold. It became only natural that all unbelievers be converted or destroyed.

Regards,

Doug

 

[Jludo]

I've read through a portion of the old testament. I can remember where a believer(Jew) was stoned for ignoring one of God's laws, and where some Jews stoned a Christian, but I don't recall what you are referring to. Most of the non-believers I remember killed in the bible would have been the ones God told them to fight when they first fought for the land they are now living in. Anyways, it's too bad there wasn't a threat discussing religion somewhere before this one...

"If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you ... Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die." -- Dt.13:6-10

 

[Jludo]

Is the Sharia the Koran? I don't equate these two.

Is the Bible, especially the OT, the Early Church? I don't equate those two either, nor would most secular scholars or Jews or Christians.

Your claim was the early church treated non believers much like the Sharia. I am asking for the proof of that claim. the Early Church is most commonly accepted to begin circa 90 AD. There are plenty of documents put forth in the early Church. I am simply asking you to put forth the one that does spells out what you claim.

If you want to say the Old Testament contained elements that approached Sharia Law that's a completely different claim.

I would be most interested to hear how you think a pacifistic tribe would have survived and maintained its cultural identity circa 6000 BC. Are there any examples of such tribes that continued in existence? That would also be a different but interesting discussion.

I forget the verse in which God said," these are the morals to live by, but I understand it's tough out there, kill kids and take slaves"

 

[foszoe]

I forget the verse in which God said," these are the morals to live by, but I understand it's tough out there, kill kids and take slaves"

You can confuse the matter, but again I am asking for documentation that the early Church had a Sharia like document on the treatment of Non believers. The Bible, especially the OT was written prior to the period of the historical church.

I would simply like that claim supported or withdrawn. You can make a new one about the OT and Sharia if you wish.

 

[Jludo]

You can confuse the matter, but again I am asking for documentation that the early Church had a Sharia like document on the treatment of Non believers. The Bible, especially the OT was written prior to the period of the historical church.

I would simply like that claim supported or withdrawn. You can make a new one about the OT and Sharia if you wish.

I never claimed the early church had a sharia like document, I said the early church killed non believers and God commanded non believers be killed in the old testament.