Tactical Response at it again. Dangerous and Unprofessional ?

[Mr Evilwrench]

The fact that Yeager has denounced this guy's actions and this drill, does that change anyone's attitude or is Yeager still at fault?

He may not be at fault for this, and I didn't really think he was, but I still want him to stop being on my side because he makes us all look like paste eaters.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

The fact that Yeager has denounced this guy's actions and this drill, does that change anyone's attitude or is Yeager still at fault?

Where? I'm not on Faceypage or Spacebook or whatever the cool kids twit with these days. The quote above basically said "at least he was doing something, critics are doody-heads".

 

[Destro]

I took his "Tactical Clutch Operators Course" a few years back....class spent 4 hours in a ditch with Cory talking about memories from the "Sandbox"

 

[The Professor]

He may not be at fault for this, and I didn't really think he was, but I still want him to stop being on my side because he makes us all look like paste eaters.

I've stayed out of this conversation this long, but have to interject here.

Despite the fact that it wasn't Yeager, personally, who did the dirty deed, it was HIS company and, presumably, the individual was trained or vetted by him.

Just as a commander is responsible for the actions of those under him so, too, is Yeager responsible for those operating under the auspices of his company.

Now, looking back at history, it is undoubtable that a couple of things may happen, here.

First: Nothing. Yeager will ignore emails and other attempts to contact him to discuss the issue. Eventually, it will go away. The more he opens his mouth about it, the more his detractors will have the opportunity to dissect and respond.

Second: Disavowment. Yeager will state that the instructor-in-question went off the reservation and was roguely operating under Non-TR-Approved methodology. He will state that the instructor has been stripped of his authorization to instruct. From there, a couple of things may happen, though I doubt it. One is that he may offer to go reteach the class, himself, at no cost to the original students. That would probably be the wisest after refunding their money. I doubt, though, that he, or the original instructor, will do this. The original instructor (I wish we knew his name) will claim that he was unjustly ejected and Yeager will claim a release from responsibility because the Instructor was not authorized to teach outside the approved curriculum.

Ah well, if nothing else, it does prove entertaining. . .since no one was injured.

The Professor

 

[Expatriated]

I'm assuming you guys didn't read the AR-15 link that was posted? Read page 13 for Yeager's statement.

I'll help everyone out:


"Hello Alumni,

Well now that you have trained with us you are a part of our family…our big dysfunctional family. As I write this message I haven’t spoken with my crew that taught your Fighting Pistol class in Sacramento but I can still draw a conclusion. One of my instructors, [instructor name removed], did something that was not in our curriculum, was not authorized, was not allowed, is not condoned and was very reckless, dangerous and negligent. We are all very fortunate no person was injured.

People from your class are already telling this story on-line and, of course, as it turns from an eyewitness account into gossip the story will get more and more outlandish. One day it will be so preposterous you yourself will have to interject that you were there, and that is not what happened, and you will be scoffed at. Such is life… I thank those of you who have not gone on-line and bashed us.
Well, I certainly cannot take that errant round back but I can deal with the consequences. I can tell you that [instructor name removed] has never done anything like this before. It is still hard for me to believe he even did it! It is very unlike him but facts are facts. So I am left with what to do with [instructor name removed]. I simply cannot do "nothing” but what do you do with a devoted employee that has worked very hard to be good at his job that does a hair brained thing like this? It is even tougher when this knucklehead is my friend. We are a close knit team here at Tactical Response.

So I am left with the aftermath to sort through and clean up. I have to decide to fire a guy on his "first offense” or if I should suspend him or make him do remedial training. There are many wrong answers and no 100% right one. Any decision like this weighs heavily on my heart.

I will end with this – I GIVE YOU MY WORD that nothing like this will ever happen again in one of my classes and I SINCERELY APOLOGIZE to every student in that class for his unprofessional display. It was WRONG and will NEVER happen again.

James Yeager - MFCEO"

 

[Expatriated]

I certainly don't expect Yeager to get a fair trial on INGO, but he does bring up a good point.

Assuming the exact circumstances were the same (i.e., the event occurred exactly as it was reported online), but it was your company. What would be your remedy? Would you fire the instructor immediately? What if he had a clean track record before and had never done this? What if he were your friend and coworker for a long time, would a second chance be out of the question?

It's easy for me to say cause I'm not involved but I would have to say that I would have to let the instructor go. The company's rep is greater than any one individual and even if I was 100% certain that they'd never do it again, the damage they caused would have to have some consequences.

I've been on ranges where one of my instructors was doing something stupid and dangerous, but no one got hurt. I've also been on a range where the instructor did everything right but the students did something wrong and were shot. Sometimes the gravity of the consequences don't always match the actions, so what do you judge--the action or the consequences? Or both?

 

[Kirk Freeman]

, is not condoned and was very reckless, dangerous and negligent. We are all very fortunate no person was injured.

Good for Yeager!

These Tactical A**holes need to be condemned and shunned. There is no purpose of this Tommy Tactical crap.

Well, I certainly cannot take that errant round back but I can deal with the consequences. I can tell you that [instructor name removed] has never done anything like this before. It is still hard for me to believe he even did it! It is very unlike him but facts are facts.

Thank goodness Yeager realizes what he did. I feel much better that this was not sanctioned.

 

[romad7]

I've been watching this blow up from the sidelines because I was waiting for James to say something, somewhere and I'm glad he said what he did. I only took Fighting Shotgun there but it was a very safe and worthwhile experience. An instructor did drop his own pistol on the ground only to demonstrate what to do if you fumble a draw, let it go and don't grab for it. He didn't stomp it or tell anyone to drop their own pistol.

I've never seen anything done irresponsibly at TR or Valor Ridge (similar curriculum) in the 3 classes that I've taken. I trust both schools to keep their students safe.

 

[Dirtebiker]

When did Yeager do this?

I am glad he denounced it as stupid and irresponsible . . . if only INGO would denounce it instead of excuse this moronic behavior. . . but have not yet seen any statement's by Yeager or TR.

Kirk, you constantly put all of INGO as one. And too many times use the word "morons".
everyone here has denounced this action except one. Why pretend we all agree with the stupidity?

 

[Sailor]

Link definitely not work safe. Tactical Prolapse, the Yeager Cult and my Sincere Apology to Porn Star Buck Angel. ? Eric Kirsch

 

[BehindBlueI's]

I certainly don't expect Yeager to get a fair trial on INGO, but he does bring up a good point.

Assuming the exact circumstances were the same (i.e., the event occurred exactly as it was reported online), but it was your company. What would be your remedy? Would you fire the instructor immediately? What if he had a clean track record before and had never done this? What if he were your friend and coworker for a long time, would a second chance be out of the question?

It's easy for me to say cause I'm not involved but I would have to say that I would have to let the instructor go. The company's rep is greater than any one individual and even if I was 100% certain that they'd never do it again, the damage they caused would have to have some consequences.

I've been on ranges where one of my instructors was doing something stupid and dangerous, but no one got hurt. I've also been on a range where the instructor did everything right but the students did something wrong and were shot. Sometimes the gravity of the consequences don't always match the actions, so what do you judge--the action or the consequences? Or both?

I would be hard pressed to not fire them if it's how it was presented.

Poor judgement
Failure to follow company lesson plan
Damage to customer property
Damage to business reputation
Damage to business relationship (lost access to range)

Mistake of fact is easier to forgive then mistake in judgement.

 

[Fordtough25]

I wonder which instructor it was. A long time instructor or one of the newer guys.

 

[Rookie]

That right there is a Tacti COOL response alumni. Sign me up!

Kirk approves because there's no beard.

 

[HoughMade]

...“It is not the critic who counts: not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself for a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat.”
Theodore Roosevelt, 1910...

I'm glad that Yeager seems to be taking this seriously, but the initial use of the quote above is total BS. This could be [mis]used to justify all manner of misguided idiocy. "I tried really hard" is what a 8th grader whines to their mom when they bring home an F in math.

 

[Expatriated]

I would be hard pressed to not fire them if it's how it was presented.

Poor judgement
Failure to follow company lesson plan
Damage to customer property
Damage to business reputation
Damage to business relationship (lost access to range)

Mistake of fact is easier to forgive then mistake in judgement.

I agree.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Kirk, you constantly put all of INGO as one.

Overbreadth objection? I can see it.

I agree that there were INGOers that decried this stupidity. Too many are allowing sloppy gun handling to be some sort of Tactical purity test. Everyone who objects to stupidity is a "Fudd" or whatever and is going to take away our fun.

Breaking the Four Rules and doing moronic things with guns is not tactical, it's just sloppy and reckless and endangers us all. I am glad Yeager is speaking out against this stupidity.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

I'm glad that Yeager seems to be taking this seriously, but the initial use of the quote above is total BS. This could be [mis]used to justify all manner of misguided idiocy. "I tried really hard" is what a 8th grader whines to their mom when they bring home an F in math.

One can always recover from an F in math, one might not be able to recover from a bullet wound.

 

[T.Lex]

I was rewatching Blackhawk Down and thought of this thread where bald-Malfoy tells Delta McTactical (with 3 day growth beard) that his weapon is not on safety, and McTactical responds, "This is my safety."

I don't think the same applies when playing parking lot soccer with loaded firearms.

 

[in625shooter]

I'm glad that Yeager seems to be taking this seriously, but the initial use of the quote above is total BS. This could be [mis]used to justify all manner of misguided idiocy. "I tried really hard" is what a 8th grader whines to their mom when they bring home an F in math.

100% on the (mis)use part.

There is a big difference making a mistake while trying to do the right thing, that can happen but, making a mistake while purposely doing the wrong thing.....well you get what you get on that one.

 

[HoughMade]

One can always recover from an F in math,

I did...well, my last F on a major test was in Algebra in 9th grade, but I digress.

...one might not be able to recover from a bullet wound.

Very true. I took the use of the Teddy Roosevelt quote as: "hey, we're trying really hard to train people so when we do stupid stuff, shut up about it..."

Anyhoo, there's serious competition among trainers, so they'll continue to ratchet up the pseudo badassery (a/k/a advertising) until someone gets killed.

Oh, wait, people have died...and the ratcheting continues.