Syrian Refugees

[ghuns]

Actually, my opinion, anyone who thinks it's ok to unleash the potential of these people on other fellow Americans should be ashamed.

In your opinion, what potential do "these" people possess that you and I do not?

 

[mrjarrell]

The ACLU, national and state, are suing Pence for putting up his imaginary wall around the state.

ACLU sues Gov. Mike Pence over Syrian refugee decision - 13 WTHR Indianapolis

 

[olhorseman]

The ACLU, national and state, are suing Pence for putting up his imaginary wall around the state.

ACLU sues Gov. Mike Pence over Syrian refugee decision - 13 WTHR Indianapolis

​As long as that wall keeps you crazy Hoosiers in, it's okay with me.

 

[Expat]

The ACLU, national and state, are suing Pence for putting up his imaginary wall around the state.

ACLU sues Gov. Mike Pence over Syrian refugee decision - 13 WTHR Indianapolis

Not surprising given their hatred for any anti-progressive positions.

 

[ArmedProgrammer]

I think what most people are getting at here is pointing out the difference between active Atheism and Agnosticism.

The Agnostic doesn't believe in a Deity - but instead says that "I can't prove it one way or the other, so I'm not going to sweat it." They don't have a dog in the fight.

The true Atheist says that there "definitely IS NO Deity, and those that believe in such are full of it". Thus, they DO have a dog in the fight.

The line from Neil Peart about - "if you choose not to decide , you still have made a choice..." applies. That said, I would find the Agnostic argument free of more dogma by far than the Atheist argument...

For myself - I know what I believe, and if someone asked my opinion , I would share it. No different than if someone asked my opinion of my EDC firearm or anything else. There are fanboys of Glock, Kahr, Hi-Point etc. *Oh and Glocks suck* (insert purple as needed)

 

[churchmouse]

I think what most people are getting at here is pointing out the difference between active Atheism and Agnosticism.

The Agnostic doesn't believe in a Deity - but instead says that "I can't prove it one way or the other, so I'm not going to sweat it." They don't have a dog in the fight.

The true Atheist says that there "definitely IS NO Deity, and those that believe in such are full of it". Thus, they DO have a dog in the fight.

The line from Neil Peart about - "if you choose not to decide , you still have made a choice..." applies. That said, I would find the Agnostic argument free of more dogma by far than the Atheist argument...

For myself - I know what I believe, and if someone asked my opinion , I would share it. No different than if someone asked my opinion of my EDC firearm or anything else. There are fanboys of Glock, Kahr, Hi-Point etc. *Oh and Glocks suck* (insert purple as needed)

I see a thread jack in the making.....

 

[Jludo]

They certainly proselytize worse than a Jehovah's Witness.

Yea dunno how often I get them knocking at my door, handing out flyers on the street corner or dressed up like clowns telling us we're going to burn in hell for drinking beer.

 

[ArmedProgrammer]

I see a thread jack in the making.....

Sorry sir - not intended as such... more a response to some of the upstream conversation.

<SuperFriends Announcer Voice>
Meanwhile, back in Syria....
</SuperFriends Announcer Voice>

 

[Jludo]

Atheists just make me laugh. So it's all good.

The funniest comedians do seem to be atheist agnostic

 

[indiucky]

The ACLU, national and state, are suing Pence for putting up his imaginary wall around the state.

ACLU sues Gov. Mike Pence over Syrian refugee decision - 13 WTHR Indianapolis

So when are they going to sue the feds for having an imaginary border around the United States...Seems to be a plethora of imaginary borders...

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

I got the matching contributions done today. I still think this is a good cause and encourage all who read this to consider contributing.

Have a blessed Thanksgiving.

Saturday morning bump. I think this will be my last bump. (It seems this thread's interest is waning a bit now). I owe one person a match and I'm glad to do it. I think this is a good cause and I'll be sending in the match tomorrow, I think.

I'll help those wishing to step up.

Never Again is Now

I'll go one step further. I've already donated but I'll match anybody else's donation, up to $100 (total -- I'm not a wealthy man) if they want to do something other than complain about what others may or may not be doing.

 

[jamil]

C'mon, jamil...how long have you and I been involved in these discussions? What do you think I am advocating here? I want people to leave religion behind for themselves, because they see for themselves the damage that it does. I want no part in using force (or intimidation) to quell independent thought.

I didn't mean to imply that you did. The statement was more hypothetical. The point was, people will believe what they believe. Other people's belief is not my business. Belief doesn't affect me. Actions do. Actions have both good and bad consequences. I'm saying I can't force people's beliefs to be what I want, and their belief is not my business, beyond how people's actions affect me. Hopefully I've stated that clearer this time.

Jamil, if you are a victim of violent crime in Indiana, your attacker is almost certainly going to identify as a Christian. Our prisons are full of Christians. Hell, basically every crime in our state is committed by Christians. Every beating. Every robbery. Every rape. Every murder.

Christians and Muslims believe they can do harm to other humans and go on to collect a reward in the "afterlife". They believe their god is coming any day now to end the world, and they welcome this.

These ideas are not founded in reality. These ideas are dangerous, belief in them leads people to behave abhorrently.

The ideas that an all-powerful creator of the universe exists at all, that we are able to communicate with it using our mind, and that we will live forever after our deaths...these are not supported by any empirical evidence, and would likely disappear from our lexicon if not for religious tradition.

Right now, in very real terms, parts of the world are tearing themselves apart over forces that exist solely within their imaginations. Generations wasted, over literally nothing.

Religion is a waste of a good person's energy. Of course I fully support a person's right to engage in that waste.

My experience just does not confirm your assertions.

I think generally, philosophy as a discipline for seeking truth is superior to religion. Rather than formulating beliefs through rational analysis of all experiences, religious people must interpret the world around them within the rules of their religion--according to what they already believe. Based on the above post, I suspect that you may interpret your surrounding world in a way that reinforces what you want to believe. You write as if you believe that religion is the cause of all the evil in the world, when human experience says evil would still exist without religion. Evil people use whatever excuse is most expedient to do what is in their character.

I presume that you're basically a good guy. Reasonably honest, trustworthy, of descent character. Maybe even benevolent. I doubt you'd wish ill upon other people, and you probably don't participate in evil against others. If you were a Christian, or a Muslim, or believed in Ra, I imagine that you'd still have those characteristics.

In my experience humans are self-interested. People's beliefs help shape the interests they pursue, but internal character determined by nature and nurture mostly drives how people pursue those interests. People just believe stuff. And I don't care. I care much less about what people believe in than how they treat people. Some of the meanest and kindest people I've ever met, I met in church. I've met mean and kind atheists as well. It's been my experience that people's character drives the evil pursuit of self-interest more than belief itself. Belief itself is usually a benign artifact. I've found that ideological belief doesn't correlate all that well with character. If you are just a mean person you are as likely to be a mean atheist as Christian.

Yes. Some Christians are judgmental, hypocritical, dishonest, self-righteous, even violent. But it is because those are the human traits of people with low character, not because those traits are unique to religious people. Atheists and agnostics are afflicted with the same characteristics. Some Christians are benevolent and kind and honest and generally treat people like they want to be treated, because those are the human traits of people with high character. Take religion away and humans are still left with both kinds of character. And if you don't see that, I suspect it's because it goes against what you want to believe.

And that's the problem I have with most atheists. I'm not a believer either. Most atheists I've met have an axe to grind with religion that gives them an irrational belief that religion is the root of evil in the world. And it's not. By believing that you ignore the counterexamples. I think rather than advocating that everyone believes what you believe (in your god, no god, whatever), it seems more fruitful to advocate that people just stop caring that other people believe differently. Daesh would have to find some other excuse than religion for its violent conquests if those people didn't care what other people believe.

 

[PaulF]

...
And that's the problem I have with most atheists. I'm not a believer either. Most atheists I've met have an axe to grind with religion that gives them an irrational belief that religion is the root of evil in the world. And it's not. By believing that you ignore the counterexamples. I think rather than advocating that everyone believes what you believe (in your god, no god, whatever), it seems more fruitful to advocate that people just stop caring that other people believe differently. Daesh would have to find some other excuse than religion for its violent conquests if those people didn't care what other people believe.

Another of your outstanding posts, jamil...top notch!

Please understand, I do not believe religion to be the root of all evil. However, I do believe that on a global scale religion is divisive, is a regressive social force, and is doing more harm to humanity than good, in real terms today.

I am not arguing for a violent atheist uprising, where religion is stamped out under the bootheel of "Freethought"(TM). I think that if humanity chose to leave religion behind us we would be better for it, not worse.

I have no axe to grind, jamil. If no one with an opposing point of view speaks up places like this become echo chambers. One-sided "discussions" are pointless in my estimation.

 

[Dead Duck]

While we're completely off base -

Most of the atheist I've talked to are catholic burnouts. Forced to attend the catholic church and hated religions because of that. Which is sad because most Christians I've talked to don't believe the teachings of Catholicism are even close to Christianity.

 

[jamil]

Another of your outstanding posts, jamil...top notch!

Please understand, I do not believe religion to be the root of all evil. However, I do believe that on a global scale religion is divisive, is a regressive social force, and is doing more harm to humanity than good, in real terms today.

I am not arguing for a violent atheist uprising, where religion is stamped out under the bootheel of "Freethought"(TM). I think that if humanity chose to leave religion behind us we would be better for it, not worse.

I have no axe to grind, jamil. If no one with an opposing point of view speaks up places like this become echo chambers. One-sided "discussions" are pointless in my estimation.

On a global scale, in a world with differing beliefs, people who think everyone should believe as they do are divisive and are a regressive social force. If people didn't believe in religion they'd still be different. They'd still disagree on ideas. They'd still do mean **** because other people dare to believe something different.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

Another of your outstanding posts, jamil...top notch!

Please understand, I do not believe religion to be the root of all evil. However, I do believe that on a global scale religion is divisive, is a regressive social force, and is doing more harm to humanity than good, in real terms today.

I am not arguing for a violent atheist uprising, where religion is stamped out under the bootheel of "Freethought"(TM). I think that if humanity chose to leave religion behind us we would be better for it, not worse.

I have no axe to grind, jamil. If no one with an opposing point of view speaks up places like this become echo chambers. One-sided "discussions" are pointless in my estimation.

What you're really saying it you believe the world would be better if everyone believed the same as you. But if we could snap our fingers and today all religions would be abandoned and forgotten, people would still disagree. There would always be those that will seek to control and rule others; those that would exact evil just because they want to.

Religion is not divisive, people are. I contend if all of those either lumped in with or those self described as Christians walked around trying to be more Christ-like, the world would be a more peaceful place. It's not Jesus' message that's the problem, it's the people that ignore it, misuse it, and twist it that are the problems...just as it would be if the gospel of PaulF or GFGT were followed by others.

 

[PaulF]

What you're really saying it you believe the world would be better if everyone believed the same as you.

I can understand what I have written may lead you to believe this, but is really not the core of my argument. I think religion is outdated, and has too great an influence on global events. I think that we, as societies would do well to distance ourselves from these influences.

Whether or not individuals believe in gods is not something that concerns me, I am not trying to make new atheists, and certainly not a world filled exclusively with them.

 

[Thor]

The issue is predatory religion that preaches they must convince everyone to believe as they do or they will rot in some unpleasant place. Eventually people get tired of arguing over who is right and they start killing each other. Getting people to agree to step away from their personal choice for eternity will be as hard as trying to get them to switch sides.

Live and let live, that's what I say. Anyone who disagrees needs to die.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

Live and let live, that's what I say. Anyone who disagrees needs to die.

 

[actaeon277]

I didn't mean to imply that you did. The statement was more hypothetical. The point was, people will believe what they believe. Other people's belief is not my business. Belief doesn't affect me. Actions do. Actions have both good and bad consequences. I'm saying I can't force people's beliefs to be what I want, and their belief is not my business, beyond how people's actions affect me. Hopefully I've stated that clearer this time.



My experience just does not confirm your assertions.

I think generally, philosophy as a discipline for seeking truth is superior to religion. Rather than formulating beliefs through rational analysis of all experiences, religious people must interpret the world around them within the rules of their religion--according to what they already believe. Based on the above post, I suspect that you may interpret your surrounding world in a way that reinforces what you want to believe. You write as if you believe that religion is the cause of all the evil in the world, when human experience says evil would still exist without religion. Evil people use whatever excuse is most expedient to do what is in their character.

I presume that you're basically a good guy. Reasonably honest, trustworthy, of descent character. Maybe even benevolent. I doubt you'd wish ill upon other people, and you probably don't participate in evil against others. If you were a Christian, or a Muslim, or believed in Ra, I imagine that you'd still have those characteristics.

In my experience humans are self-interested. People's beliefs help shape the interests they pursue, but internal character determined by nature and nurture mostly drives how people pursue those interests. People just believe stuff. And I don't care. I care much less about what people believe in than how they treat people. Some of the meanest and kindest people I've ever met, I met in church. I've met mean and kind atheists as well. It's been my experience that people's character drives the evil pursuit of self-interest more than belief itself. Belief itself is usually a benign artifact. I've found that ideological belief doesn't correlate all that well with character. If you are just a mean person you are as likely to be a mean atheist as Christian.

Yes. Some Christians are judgmental, hypocritical, dishonest, self-righteous, even violent. But it is because those are the human traits of people with low character, not because those traits are unique to religious people. Atheists and agnostics are afflicted with the same characteristics. Some Christians are benevolent and kind and honest and generally treat people like they want to be treated, because those are the human traits of people with high character. Take religion away and humans are still left with both kinds of character. And if you don't see that, I suspect it's because it goes against what you want to believe.

And that's the problem I have with most atheists. I'm not a believer either. Most atheists I've met have an axe to grind with religion that gives them an irrational belief that religion is the root of evil in the world. And it's not. By believing that you ignore the counterexamples. I think rather than advocating that everyone believes what you believe (in your god, no god, whatever), it seems more fruitful to advocate that people just stop caring that other people believe differently. Daesh would have to find some other excuse than religion for its violent conquests if those people didn't care what other people believe.