Soldier refuses to deploy/follow Obama due to the POTUS is not US Citizen

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  • dburkhead

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    Yes, I have given some thought to it, but I am with the thinking that the noted conflicts you stated in your previous post were done so without proper authorizations, yet nothing was done to challenge those actions at the congressional level, as they were in fact, the ones that diverted the declaration of war. Question is, why would they authorize actions against others without the declaration of war? But rather, to pass an act such as in 1819...
    Congress passes an "Act in addition to the acts prohibiting the Slave Trade," which authorizes the president to send a naval squadron to African waters to apprehend illegal slave traders. It also appropriates $100,000 to resettle recaptured slaves in Africa, finally enforcing the 1808 ban on the slave trade.
    Am I just a simpleton with the defining terms and you are correct that they are in fact informal declarations of war?

    I understand there were several instances where action was taken without declaring war...such as the example of the Barbary pirates, where our Navy was sent to protect the merchant vessels, not necessarily to go kill pirates. Killing of the pirates was a result of protecting the merchant ships.

    I do fall back to the fact that throughout history, our congress has passed legislation that has been unconstitutional from the inception of our government...just look at the federal reserve for one.

    I see. And what makes your interpretation of what's Constitutional, what is actually required of Congress in it's power to declare war, more valid than that of folk like Jefferson, Washington (called out of retirement to command our armed forces during the Quasi War), Madison, Monroe, and Hamilton?

    Consider: The Constitution spells out the actual text of the Presidential Oath of Office. Those exact words are to be used to swear in a new President. It does not, however, specify what form a declaration of war must take. There's no "before a war may be declared, Congress will vote on the following statement [text of wording of declaration of war]" paralleling that of the Presidential oath of office. Nope. Since it's not defined in the Constitution, by default it's left to Congress to decide what form constitutes a declaration of war. On what basis is something like "Congress authorizes the President to begin military operations against the nation of France in response to seizure of American ships by warships of the French Navy" (one of the main causes of the quasi-war with France) not qualify if Congress decides that it is sufficient?

    Now, as for the claim that Congress has passed Unconstitutional laws from the beginning, consider the situation. Piracy suppression has been a function of the Navy since there was a Navy, and that is before the Constitution was written. Piracy Suppression involves using military force against foreign (often) nationals based out of foreign (often) ports. (That some pirates may have been US Nationals operating out of US ports doesn't change that anti-pirate operations were carried out against foreign nationals on foreign--if any--flag vessels, sailing out of foreign ports.) Piracy suppression was going on before the Constitution was written. It was going on while the Constitution was being written and debated. It was going on while the Constitution was being ratified. And it continued after the Constitution was ratified. Now, if the Congressional power to declare war was actually intended to prevent any use of military power outside the US (we'll leave aside the question of inside since Posse Commitatus was still pretty far in the future), we have here an example of the US Navy doing something before the Constitution was written that this clause was supposed to forbid, then continuing it after the Constitution was ratified . . . and nobody said anything?

    If the provision that Congress is the branch that declares war was really to prevent use of military force without Congress saying "a state of war exists between..." then shouldn't something have been said when Commodore David Porter went out with 20 gunboats in an effort to suppress piracy (given that task by Thomas Jefferson)?

    I mean, the Louisiana Purchase was strictly speaking unconstitutional and, in fact, Jefferson himself questioned the constitutionality of it--and did it anyway. But the point is the question was raised. The Constitutionality was questioned.

    Where are the questions, before the modern era, of folk questioning the idea that not all uses of military force by the United States require a formal declaration if war using language something like "declare that a state of war exists between the US and..."?
     

    SavageEagle

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    And you complained about me arguing semantics? You went there first, I just clarified my point. :rolleyes:



    If you want to argue about the Geneva and Hague conventions, I would suggest you read them. They don't say what a lot of people think they say. We've been through this round and round in the past. I have. I know what they say. again.. :rolleyes:

    Sorry, but no. Giving orders to the military does not in and of itself make one part of the military. Umm... ?????? Are you serious? This is the best you got? Cmon...

    As was pointed out uptopic, he was, actually. And note, he wasn't tried for adultery. He was tried for perjury. And the procedure was exactly what the Constitution spells out for "high crimes and misdemeanors" by the President--impeachment by the House followed by Trial by the Senate. He was tried. Now, the Senate didn't convict since I guess too many interpreted "beyond a reasonable doubt" to mean "since he's a Democrat and I'm a Democrat, I can't vote to convict" but he was tried. yea yea yea. Cwood and I got that cleared up. Gotcha. W/E

    The UCMJ doesn't say that the President is exempt because the Constitution spells out only one procedure for dealing with a President who accused of "high crimes and misdemeanors" and it's not through courts martial (the mechanism applied within the UCMJ). When did I ever say anything about impeaching him through the military? If I ever did, it wasn't in this thread... I said INVESTIGATE!!!!! HELLO!! (Pink Floyd)Is there anybody... out there?(/Pink Floyd) Sorry, couldn't help myself. :D The military is completely free to investigate and he is required to testify in any case just the same as the rest of us. He is not exempt from this. He must comply without question during a court martial because you can't plead the fifth in the military, right?


    Ah, but the person who would be giving me the order (since I never rose above E4 Sergeant--rough equivalent of a Corporal in Army and Marines) would be someone who was legally able to give me the order: the ever popular Captain Bohica.

    But if the order from him came from the top, you as the person tasked with carrying out the order is obligated to not follow the illegal order even if everyone above you still passed it on. Just because 50 other people before you didn't shoot the innocent person doesn't mean that you should.

    And none of that nothing to do with the orders given by Captain Bohica to Private Droopy. It's only when you get to the level of Corps Commanders or the Joint Chiefs that the question of whether the one giving the orders has has the authority to do so arises.

    As I said before, my orders came from Captain Bohica. And he, most certainly had the authority to issue orders to me. See above statement.


    "Unprecedented"? As far as his birth certificate is concerned the only "unprecedented" is that he is from (if it's as he claims) Hawaii where the so-called "long form" is sealed by policy for everyone.

    What about his college records? His records from the VPC? As a Community Organizer? The best we got are his voting records from his time in office and what little of his past he tells us and others that knew/know him tell us. All that coming from a President no less. So if that's not unprecedented, then name me some other Presidents that have sealed up their past under suspicion of not being a Natural Born Citizen?

    This may come as a shock, but you do get those in the military. I take back seat to no one in my respect for the military but part of that respect is recognizing that the military has its share of "bad apples" too. That isn't to say that the soldier in question is one of them, but, frankly, he's wrong. Unless he was personally ordered to deploy by Obama, then whether or not Obama is de-jure (that he is de-facto is unquestionable at this point) authorized to give orders has no bearing on his case. His commander is most certainly authorized to give him orders and I'm pretty confident it's that commander who actually issued those orders.

    And you know what, maybe he is one of those rare "Bad Apples". But the point he made still stands. Regardless his reasons for doing this, it is a BIG step in the right direction. It's the legal force that needed to happen. Just because the SCOTUS may hear a case or two, what if he gets the chance to replace a Constitutional Judge for another Idealog like the one on the stand now? See where I'm going with this?

    It's just the perfect way to force obamatards hand into showing the truth we all rightfully deserve. How can you not be 100% behind this guy, just for that fact alone?
     

    Rob377

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    And you know what, maybe he is one of those rare "Bad Apples". But the point he made still stands. Regardless his reasons for doing this, it is a BIG step in the right direction. It's the legal force that needed to happen. Just because the SCOTUS may hear a case or two, what if he gets the chance to replace a Constitutional Judge for another Idealog like the one on the stand now? See where I'm going with this?

    It's just the perfect way to force obamatards hand into showing the truth we all rightfully deserve. How can you not be 100% behind this guy, just for that fact alone?

    Because it isn't going to work, just as the other dozen+ lawsuits haven't worked.

    I hope this guy likes the weather in Kansas. He's going to be seeing alot of it.
     

    Rattlesnake46319

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    snip
    This soldier has done pretty much the same thing. He has evaluated an order he has received, and determined that because the person sitting in the White House does not meet the Constitutional requirements to be President, he cannot give legal orders. As young airman partner did, he has evaluated the decision, and is prepared to face the consequences of disobeying.
    snip

    Was talking on the phone with a civilian friend about this and went quoting the Oath of Enlistment and Oath of Office. Being enlisted, I wasn't familiar with the Oath of Office and assumed it was the same.

    I, [name], do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter. So help me God.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Uniformed_Services_Oath_of_Office#cite_note-USC10.3331-0

    Guess they aren't. Seems that officers are not bound by oath to follow orders, only the Constitution. Interesting. Not sure it'll mean anything, but food for thought/discussion.

    Just saw a report that the Major's orders have been revoked.


    Here comes the Court Martial

    Source?
     

    dburkhead

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    And you know what, maybe he is one of those rare "Bad Apples". But the point he made still stands. Regardless his reasons for doing this, it is a BIG step in the right direction. It's the legal force that needed to happen. Just because the SCOTUS may hear a case or two, what if he gets the chance to replace a Constitutional Judge for another Idealog like the one on the stand now? See where I'm going with this?

    It's just the perfect way to force obamatards hand into showing the truth we all rightfully deserve. How can you not be 100% behind this guy, just for that fact alone?

    "You went there first." Um. No. That you claimed I was arguing semantics doesn't make it so. Whereas quibbling over the labeling of "war" and "conflict" is, almost by definition.

    If you know what the Geneva and Hague conventions say, why do you bring them up in this conversation where they are irrelevant?

    "Are you serious?" Yes. I'm serious. It's called civilian control of the military. Note that word "civilian" in there. If I hire a security firm, I may be able to give them orders, but that doesn't make me part of the security firm. If I go to a restaurant, I may give orders there (Porterhouse, medium rare), but again that doesn't make me part of the restaurant. Civilian control of the military. This was covered in classes in Basic. It was covered again in NCO school. It was covered again in at least two different "refresher courses" while I was in. This was in a single six year enlistment. The President can give orders to the military but he is not part of the military. He's part of the civilian control of the military. This is per classes taught in the military by folk whose profession it is to know and understand the UCMJ. That contractors hired by the military to perform services for the military can be considered covered by part or all of the UCMJ during the duration of their contract does not lead to the conclusion that the civilian leadership over the military is likewise so covered.

    College records, VPC, etc., have nothing to do with the question at hand of whether he is legally Commander in Chief. The only relevant question is that of his birth records--and the "sealed" birth record is policy for everyone from the State of Hawaii. For these others, I may not like it, but I am aware of no law that requires that information to be disclosed.

    The only writ that runs against the President is impeachment followed by trial by the senate. That's it. That's in the Constitution. The UCMJ is law passed by Congress applied to the military. Only the Constitution could give law passed by Congress authority over the President and the mechanism by which it does so is Impeachment. That's. It.

    As for "investigation," you're dreaming. The authority you think is there, isn't.

    Oh, you most certainly can "refuse to answer on advice of council." In the military. When I was in the military the NCO in charge of quarters maintenance (I was working in that group at the time being on "casual status" while awaiting ETS) was brought up on charges of embezzlement. In the course of that investigation I had my "rights read to me" (not like in the movies. What we had was a document outlining those rights, which were gone over paragraph by paragraph, I initialed each paragraph and signed at the bottom) and, yep, those 5th Amendment rights are right there.

    In the Clinton case, it was an investigation authorized by Congress pursuent to possible impeachment--exactly as the Constitution specifies.

    "But the order came from the top." And, as I explained earlier, that doesn't matter. All that matters to me, as the NCO/Airman is that the person who gave me the order was legally authorized to do so. Even if the order ultimately came from the Base Commander's wife, who has no legal authority to issue orders, If I fail to obey Captain Bohica's orders, then I can be charged for that failure, and rightly so. It's up to folk at the top of the military chain of command if they want to question whether the civilian leadership given orders have actual authority to do so, that would be one thing, but once you get down to ranks like "Major," let alone the first timer enlisted like me, the only question is: does Captain Bohica (or Colonel Bohica in the case of the Major) have the authority to give me that order. And since their authority comes from their position in the military heirarchy, not from whoever happens to be sitting in the White House, the answer is a clear "yes."

    How can I not be for that guy? The same reason I can "not be for" Giuseppe Zangara despite what a socio-fascist tyrant FDR was. It's called "rule of law." In the military context it's called "being subject to military discipline" which trumps "political statements way above the individual's pay grade."
     

    henktermaat

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    Here's the updated article about the Orders being Revoked:
    Bombshell: Orders revoked for soldier challenging prez

    [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]BORN IN THE USA?[/SIZE][/FONT]
    [FONT=Palatino, Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=+2]Bombshell: Orders revoked for soldier challenging prez[/SIZE][/FONT]
    [FONT=Palatino, Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=+1]Major victory for Army warrior questioning Obama's birthplace[/SIZE][/FONT]
    [SIZE=-1]Posted: July 14, 2009
    9:53 pm Eastern

    [/SIZE] [FONT=Palatino, Times New Roman, Georgia, Times, serif]By Chelsea Schilling and Joe Kovacs[/FONT]
    [SIZE=-1] © 2009 WorldNetDaily [/SIZE]

    A U.S. Army Reserve major from Florida scheduled to report for deployment to Afghanistan within days has had his military orders revoked after arguing he should not be required to serve under a president who has not proven his eligibility for office.
    His attorney, Orly Taitz, confirmed to WND the military has rescinded his impending deployment orders.
    "We won! We won before we even arrived," she said with excitement. "It means that the military has nothing to show for Obama. It means that the military has directly responded by saying Obama is illegitimate – and they cannot fight it. Therefore, they are revoking the order!"
    She continued, "They just said, 'Order revoked.' No explanation. No reasons – just revoked."
    A hearing on the questions raised by Maj. Stefan Frederick Cook, an engineer who told WND he wants to serve his country in Afghanistan, was scheduled for July 16 at 9:30 a.m.

    "As an officer in the armed forces of the United States, it is [my] duty to gain clarification on any order we may believe illegal. With that said, if President Obama is found not to be a 'natural-born citizen,' he is not eligible to be commander-in-chief," he told WND only hours after the case was filed.


    ...

    It goes on to talk a lot about the birth certificate issue. at the bottom, we see just how shrouded in mystery our "president" is:

    ... his kindergarten records, his Punahou school records, his Occidental College records, his Columbia University records, his Columbia thesis, his Harvard Law School records, his Harvard Law Review articles, his scholarly articles from the University of Chicago, his passport, his medical records, his files from his years as an Illinois state senator, his Illinois State Bar Association records, any baptism records, and his adoption records.
     

    ATF Consumer

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    Where are the questions, before the modern era, of folk questioning the idea that not all uses of military force by the United States require a formal declaration if war using language something like "declare that a state of war exists between the US and..."?

    Whether you like it or not...you are helping me better understand what I thought I had a grasp on :)

    As I was researching last night...that is the question that kept coming up in my mind, why were various forces not questioned. Your posts along with my reading did help me better understand the system. I slept on it and has been on my mind all morning. I am on board now with the position that congress doesn't necessarily have to spell it out in a formal declaration for it to be legal.
    So, if I understand this correclty...as long as congress passes some form of act, the president then has the power to act accordingly, but is not necessarily limited to the verbiage set within?
     

    dburkhead

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    Whether you like it or not...you are helping me better understand what I thought I had a grasp on :)

    As I was researching last night...that is the question that kept coming up in my mind, why were various forces not questioned. Your posts along with my reading did help me better understand the system. I slept on it and has been on my mind all morning. I am on board now with the position that congress doesn't necessarily have to spell it out in a formal declaration for it to be legal.
    So, if I understand this correclty...as long as congress passes some form of act, the president then has the power to act accordingly, but is not necessarily limited to the verbiage set within?

    Pretty close. First off "legal" in this case is only with respect to the Constitution, whether the war is "legal" wrt international treaty is a separate issue.

    Second, immediate response to situations unfolding in "real time" is also, IMO, a Presidential function. Things like hostage rescue (cf. the recent Somali pirate case) and the like that are very limited in scope and a direct response to attacks on the US or US Citizens who are going about their lawful business. These are generally situations where, by the time Congress could even get the proposal out of committee, the issue would be over. It's never been the case that all use of military force required a declaration of war. But these need to be actual special cases where the President has to act and then justify that action before Congress, at which point Congress can say "you did good" or Congress could say "Bad President, no cookie."
     

    Joe Williams

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    Because it isn't going to work, just as the other dozen+ lawsuits haven't worked.

    I hope this guy likes the weather in Kansas. He's going to be seeing alot of it.

    Not without a birth certificate, he won't be. Unless he's just railroaded, which has it's own political advantages for those hoping to restore a legitimate government to the United States.
     

    ATF Consumer

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    Pretty close. First off "legal" in this case is only with respect to the Constitution, whether the war is "legal" wrt international treaty is a separate issue.

    Second, immediate response to situations unfolding in "real time" is also, IMO, a Presidential function. Things like hostage rescue (cf. the recent Somali pirate case) and the like that are very limited in scope and a direct response to attacks on the US or US Citizens who are going about their lawful business. These are generally situations where, by the time Congress could even get the proposal out of committee, the issue would be over. It's never been the case that all use of military force required a declaration of war. But these need to be actual special cases where the President has to act and then justify that action before Congress, at which point Congress can say "you did good" or Congress could say "Bad President, no cookie."

    Ok, I believe I got it.;)
    You need to put "Educator" in your title :):
     

    dburkhead

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    why cant the man just prove he is a citzen if theres nothing to hide.

    Mentioned uptopic to reiterate

    1) The "long form" birth certificate that people go on about is not something that Hawaii provides at all. The "short form" that has been provided is what Hawaii provides.

    2) The only reason that the "not-native born Citizen" has any legs at all is because of Obama's "furtiveness" about the situation when the question was first raised so why the furtiveness if his birth is above board?

    2a) Obama just avoids questions about his past. That's just his way of operating. Even when there's nothing to hide, he skirts the issue. One reason one might do that is if you're secretive about everything, all the "false positives" (things people think are issues because of secretiveness, but which actually aren't issues) tend to mask real issues.

    2b) Anytime a question about Obama's past is raised, the questions about "natural born citizen" is pointed to, along with the certificate which was provided (which is the only one that Hawaii provides to requesters) and used to belittle the question. The whole "Obama was not a natural born citizen" issue becomes effective flypaper to trap any questions about Obama's past.

    3) Does anybody here really think that someone holding the office of President of the United States, with a hand-picked attorney General and other such offices, could not produce any Birth Certificate he wants along with sufficient provenance to satisfy the courts? This one is lost. Let it go.
     

    Boilers

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    But there have been articles/screenshots that snopes has changed its content on those pages. So, their story has not remained constant. So, which one of the stories does one believe? They can sanitize and change it daily with no historical record of their edits.
     

    Joe Williams

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    But there have been articles/screenshots that snopes has changed its content on those pages. So, their story has not remained constant. So, which one of the stories does one believe? They can sanitize and change it daily with no historical record of their edits.

    Not to mention, snopes is hardly unbiased, or authoritative. Basically, folks who ask us to accept snopes are asking us to accept the words of two very liberal activists. No, thanks. I'll look elsewhere when it comes to political matters, since asking snopes about Dear Leader is about as unbiased and reliable as asking Garfield if lasagna is any good.
     

    dburkhead

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    But there have been articles/screenshots that snopes has changed its content on those pages. So, their story has not remained constant. So, which one of the stories does one believe? They can sanitize and change it daily with no historical record of their edits.

    And Obama has access to the FBI, which has access to the best forgers and counterfeiters to ever come down the pike. So even if whatever document people are calling for as a "birth certificate" is produced will you believe it?

    As for changes to Snopes, I'm not a big fan of snopes on political issues--they do have a left-wing bias--but I'd need to see some of these "articles/screenshots" to see if they're actual evidence of skullduggery or if they're just "page revised as additional information becomes available and/or is brought to our attention." Oh, and I'd also need to take some care that the "articles/screenshots" aren't self-serving in their own way. The non-left is not entirely populated by saints who would never do anything like alter a screenshot or make unsubstantiated claims in an article. There's lots of stuff on the Internet. Some of it's even true.
     

    dburkhead

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    Just google it and see the various cites.

    No thanks. If you don't feel strongly enough about your position to provide the support, why should I?


    Ah, citing Wikipedia. Okay for general stuff, but not for anything with any "controversy" to it. Basically, it's only as good as the last person to come through and edit it.
     

    Rob377

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    Not without a birth certificate, he won't be. Unless he's just railroaded, which has it's own political advantages for those hoping to restore a legitimate government to the United States.

    It's a Court Martial. There's a reason Courts Martial have a 90+% conviction rate.


    Look, I hate Obama as much as the next guy, maybe more, but this Birth Certificate stuff is a bunch of nonsense. The magic loophole to undo the election of this tool doesn't exist. It's wishful, desperate thinking, just as it was when the lefties where whining about FL for the last 8 years.
     

    BloodEclipse

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    In the trenches for liberty!
    I did not vote for the president and I do not support his policies, political philosophy or just about anything he stands for.

    However, the idea that he is not a natural born US citizen us complete and pure crap.

    snopes.com: Barack Obama's Passport

    snopes.com: Barack Obama Birth Certificate

    snopes.com: Where Did Obama's Money Come From?

    snopes.com: Occidental College


    Then why would it be such an inconvenience for him to provide it? Instead he is paying Lawyers in many cases to fight the RELEASE. Why fight it if you can prove it?
    Show it and shut all these kooks up.
    I'm sure he is not hiding something, I mean with all the controversy a birth certificate with the name of the Doctor and Hospital should not be too hard right?
    How many times have you had to show yours and your not even the POTUS.
     
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