Sanders: 'We have got to apologize for slavery

[jamil]

Probably true. I'm for some social programs, but that doesn't make me a socialist. And if progressive was defined as it was in Teddy Roosevelt's time, I'd be a progressive.

This is way OT, but I just want to say it.

Conservative or progressive, those definitions should remain constant. Which ideologies are currently conservative or progressive can change. They are relative to what you want to conserve, or from what you want to progress. Soviet conservatives wanted to conserve the old communist traditions. The progressives wanted to progress towards "openness". The progressives won, sorta.

In America the ideologies attached to conservative or progressive are backwards from that. What your goals are, politically, don't absolutely make you progressive or conservative. It's what you have versus what you want. If you've got what you want, you want to conserve it. I think it is impossible for progressives not to win eventually. Eventually "progress" happens whether it's good or bad. I think eventually America will no longer have a 2nd Amendment.

 

[Alpo]

I think it also has to do with your world view. Some fail to recognize that the world is a closed ecosystem and interdependent. Their "tribe" is very small. Conserving the status quo sure represents a tremendous amount of suffering for the larger world.

I don't buy into that and maybe that's a problem for some. I don't mind.

 

[cce1302]

Very disagreeable humor for a chaplain, don'tcha think?

I'm pretty comfortable with it.

They're looking for a replacement for Fred. Let Go Let God.

I don't know who "they" or "Fred" are, but I'm sure God will find Fred's replacement without my help. Perhaps if you made your personal attack less obscure, it would be more effective. Like you did in the first part of your post. Try something like, "Fred is a jerk. You should be the next Fred."

 

[churchmouse]

 

[Woobie]

]In answer to a question on "what is American Socialism" above, I saw this in the Guardian this morning. While not strictly my definition, it does give a flavor to what Bernie has said in the past and how he has voted.



A prior point raised on the Estate tax caused me to do a little research. I remembered the amount of taxes generated to be from a small segment of society. This is what I found.

That $5.3 million is not just cash lying around. A farmer with 600 acres of halfway decent ground (not that big of a farm these days) has assets in excess of that. So imagine you're barely paying your seed, fertilizer, land mortgage, equipment lease bills, and someone tells you that you need to sell 17% of your production capacity to to cover the tax bill on the inheritance you received from your parents. The blood on the plow these days is a result of the federal government, not so much the banks holding the liens in the land. You want to help the middle class you say? Then why do you support large corporate farms at the expense of the small family farm?

Oh, and by the way, you already lost %30 of your yields this year to flooding.

 

[Alpo]

If only 20 farms and small businesses owed estate tax in 2013, it seems that the farmers are managing the their tax strategies fairly well.

 

[MisterChester]

Probably true. I'm for some social programs, but that doesn't make me a socialist. And if progressive was defined as it was in Teddy Roosevelt's time, I'd be a progressive.

I believe Teddy had a good head on his shoulders. Teddy truly had the best interests of the common man at heart.

 

[Woobie]

If only 20 farms and small businesses owed estate tax in 2013, it seems that the farmers are managing the their tax strategies fairly well.

That number was a projection. However, it is indicative of what I'm talking about. The farming middle class is the real victim of such taxes, to the point that they are now nearly extinct. They are almost all either small hobby farms or large corporate farms today. I guess since the damage is already done it doesn't matter anymore.

 

[steveh_131]

i cannot imagine anything more sincere and emotionally satisfying than an apology from a federal politician

 

[Alpo]

That number was a projection. However, it is indicative of what I'm talking about. The farming middle class is the real victim of such taxes, to the point that they are now nearly extinct. They are almost all either small hobby farms or large corporate farms today. I guess since the damage is already done it doesn't matter anymore.

C'mon Woobie. Inheritance taxes was NOT the cause of the loss of individual farms in the 20th Century. If you believe that, then I don't know where this conversation can go.

 

[rhino]

That $5.3 million is not just cash lying around. A farmer with 600 acres of halfway decent ground (not that big of a farm these days) has assets in excess of that. So imagine you're barely paying your seed, fertilizer, land mortgage, equipment lease bills, and someone tells you that you need to sell 17% of your production capacity to to cover the tax bill on the inheritance you received from your parents. The blood on the plow these days is a result of the federal government, not so much the banks holding the liens in the land. You want to help the middle class you say? Then why do you support large corporate farms at the expense of the small family farm?

Oh, and by the way, you already lost %30 of your yields this year to flooding.

ARGH! Death Taxes are the most immoral, illegitimate, intrusive, evil taxes of all.

I wish I had not read that. I am now in a bad mood.

 

[Woobie]

C'mon Woobie. Inheritance taxes was NOT the cause of the loss of individual farms in the 20th Century. If you believe that, then I don't know where this conversation can go.

Certainly not the only factor, but at a minimum it was 17-40% of the problem.

 

[jamil]

You guys aren't going to get Alpo to budge on inheritance tax. Because, 1) the dead rich guy should have donated it to social causes 2) it's not going to affect Alpo 3) **** the farmers, their incidental impact isn't high enough NOT to confiscate 20% of their land.

 

[Woobie]

You guys aren't going to get Alpo to budge on inheritance tax. Because, 1) the dead rich guy should have donated it to social causes 2) it's not going to affect Alpo 3) **** the farmers, their incidental impact isn't high enough NOT to confiscate 20% of their land.

Besides, just think what Bernie could do with all that money!

 

[rhino]

You guys aren't going to get Alpo to budge on inheritance tax. Because, 1) the dead rich guy should have donated it to social causes 2) it's not going to affect Alpo 3) **** the farmers, their incidental impact isn't high enough NOT to confiscate 20% of their land.

That's one of the reasons I don't bother debating people who are already wrong.

Heh.

 

[Expat]

That's one of the reasons I don't bother debating people who are already wrong.

Heh.

Reminds me of an old saying about arguing with a certain group of people... they will drag you to their level and beat you with experience.

 

[jamil]

That's one of the reasons I don't bother debating people who are already wrong.

Heh.

Seems like it'd more frustrated your way.

 

[Woobie]

Reminds me of an old saying about arguing with a certain group of people... they will drag you to their level and beat you with experience.

Then you get mad and say something to get yourself shootered.

 

[Expat]

Then you get mad and say something to get yourself shootered.

LOL, that is why I wouldn't even quote the old saying...

 

[jamil]

Then you get mad and say something to get yourself shootered.

We need a "somber" smiley so we can have a moment of silence for Indiucky.