Rob Pincus - Appropriate Open Carry

[the1kidd03]

Yea those confrontational OCers, I despise them, they are always causing trouble, and hurting our 2nd Amendment rights. Just look at that menace Titanium Frost, he has been all over the place running amok with his rifle and whatnot. Daring the police and citizens to confront him so he can make them tremble in their boots.




What is all this about "tactics" this isn't a war. You are not trying to sneak up and execute a bad guy. If you can prevent the problem from happening, and nobody has to die, it's a win-win.

Maybe by killing the BG you save the life of a future victim? I guess if you are thinking about it that way, CC might have a tactical advantage.

I don't know what this fascination about "surprising" the robber is all about.

You can surprise them just as good when they look at you and see you are armed and they walk away and you never know it happened.

I don't doubt there are cases where OCers have their guns taken, I also imagine it has happened to police officers before. But how often does that happen? Are there any statistics compiled?

How many planes crash compared to OCers getting hit over the head and their guns taken?

If a few incidents in years justifies you never OCing in fear of it happening, then you might not want to drive a car.

I think OCing has more benefits than risks, just like the convenience of driving does.

Nothing wrong with making political statements either, I don't see how any pro-gun person can think that way. Any political statement outside of an organized rally is abusing your right, and improper? Really?

Around the house and locally ( we live out in the county ) I wear a leather Bianchi holster, the Black Widow one, it has a retention snap.

Other places I wear the Level 3 Retention Serpa holster at 3 0'Clock

The last reports I saw were incredibly low. Far into the single digit percentages as far as people trying to take LEOs weapons.

I would further wager that they aren't targeted for their gun by such individuals, but rather because the person has had previous experience with LE that gives them a serious distaste for authority figures and entices them to target a LEO merely because he is a LEO.

But no real way to track all of that sort of data without having agencies to do so.

 

[Cameramonkey]

Again, making a broad statement about OC. It really disturbs me that many see all OC'ers as being confrontational.

Just carry. But don't tell me I'm doing it wrong just because I choose to do it differently than you.

I think I finally boiled it down in my own head finally. There are two distinct camps in play here.

Those FOR OC just see it as exercising your rights.

Those against OC see it as hostile and confrontational because OCers are admittedly “confronting” a BG by making him second guess his assault before it even begins. But they are also unwittingly “confronting” (and offending, but who cares) those innocents who are against guns or at least not comfortable around them. OCing is, in a way, a form of passive-aggressive confrontation to all those around you. Who they are depends on the reaction.

 

[the1kidd03]

I think I finally boiled it down in my own head finally. There are two distinct camps in play here.

Those FOR OC just see it as exercising your rights.

Those against OC see it as hostile and confrontational because OCers are admittedly “confronting” a BG by making him second guess his assault before it even begins. But they are also unwittingly “confronting” (and offending, but who cares) those innocents who are against guns or at least not comfortable around them. OCing is, in a way, a form of passive-aggressive confrontation to all those around you. Who they are depends on the reaction.

I don't know that I would go so far as to define it in that manner. While, yes some people may be "offended" at the site of a gun that is their choice through lack of education. That is in no way a form of psychological indication for the person carrying the gun.

 

[Cameramonkey]

I don't know that I would go so far as to define it in that manner. While, yes some people may be "offended" at the site of a gun that is their choice through lack of education. That is in no way a form of psychological indication for the person carrying the gun.

I agree. I'm not saying that the OCer is to blame for the offense of the ignorant or are intentionally being a prick TRYING to offend them. I'm just saying they are Indeed admittedly confronting everyone around them whether they mean to or not. Yes, they are TRYING to only confront the BGs but there is some collateral damage happening.

 

[the1kidd03]

I agree. I'm not saying that the OCer is to blame for the offense of the ignorant or are intentionally being a prick TRYING to offend them. I'm just saying they are Indeed admittedly confronting everyone around them whether they mean to or not. Yes, they are TRYING to only confront the BGs but there is some collateral damage happening.

Collateral damage due to other's choices.

Liberty, freedom, and rights are not about "if they don't bother another."

If one doesn't like it, nobody is forcing them to be around it. That doesn't inherently give them the right to force their difference in opinion on the carrier by way of government legislation.

 

[iChokePeople]

Collateral damage due to other's choices.

Liberty, freedom, and rights are not about "if they don't bother another."

If one doesn't like it, nobody is forcing them to be around it. That doesn't inherently give them the right to force their difference in opinion on the carrier by way of government legislation.

Nothing to add here, just copying this to paste in a few other threads.

 

[the1kidd03]

Nothing to add here, just copying this to paste in a few other threads.

"El Conquistador"......I just heard that bit on Bob and Tom a few days ago....

 

[griffin]

Yes, it was the Zimmerman/Martin Event that I was referring to. At the time of this taping, the prevailing story was that Martin was trying to take away Zimmerman's openly carried gun during the struggle.

I've never read Zimmerman was OCing. In fact, the story was his gun might have been revealed during the struggle when Z was on his back. I've not read a single story about Z OCing, and I've read just about every news story out there on this case.

Plus, since OC is generally illegal in FL (only allowed in narrow circumstances) it would have been a big deal.

 

[griffin]

I don't know what this fascination about "surprising" the robber is all about. You can surprise them just as good when they look at you and see you are armed and they walk away and you never know it happened.

I think OCing has more benefits than risks, just like the convenience of driving does.

Nothing wrong with making political statements either, I don't see how any pro-gun person can think that way. Any political statement outside of an organized rally is abusing your right, and improper? Really?

+1 Rep'd.

 

[Robjps]

I am quite old enough to remember Clinton. I am also old enough to realize that its no longer the 80's or 90's and that his AWB sunset almost a decade ago.

You said that concealment is the reason we've lost our rights. I asked what rights we've lost. Last I saw, there hasn't been any serious new restrictions for Indiana or at the Federal level for about 30 years, and I don't think those had anything to do with concealed carry. No, as I pointed out, our recognized rights have expanded.

You are choosing to ignore it or are special either way. My point has nothing to be about CC vs OC it has to do about that the media has vilified gun owners to the point where people panic over the sight of firearms where before they were openly displayed (once again not talking about CC).

Perfect example was when CPS tried to take a kid for having a picture of him holding a 22.

The media portrays us as fringe militant groups, duck dynasty wannabes, and flat out crazies and that is what the uninformed public thinks we are. We need to desensitize the American public into realizing gun owners are all around them normal law abiding citizens.

1994 AWB 1986 machine gun registry at the Federal level. Not counting current attempts UN gun ban/AWB and schemes like fast and furious. You can also choose to ignore what goes on around you in IL CO NY CA and a dozen other states as it doesn't affect you...... yet. You need to realize things need to change and not in Obama's way.

 

[BehindBlueI's]

My point has nothing to be about CC vs OC...

With emphasis added:

While agree from a tactic stand point that CC > OC.

I strongly disagree with his political views of that you should have to hide the fact you are armed. IMO this hiding it is why a lot of our rights were stripped away.

I guess I'm confused about what you were saying in your original post, then as it appears you are saying that hiding guns is why we are losing our rights. I again ask what rights we've lost in Indiana or at a federal level due to hiding our firearms. Indiana got the LTCH in what...1983 or so? Was lack of open carry really what caused the GCA of 1986?

If it has nothing to do with CC vs OC why its relevant to this thread?

 

[92ThoStro]

I don't think we lost any rights by hiding them, we voted people in, things happened, guns were seen as evil, and we lost rights. Now we have been gaining them back. And I firmly believe that making the sight of firearms common, will help.

Now, months ago, someone did bring up a point. In my home state of CA you use to be able to OC unloaded w/ loaded mag on opposite hip. They got rid of that recently, so... people started to OC rifles and shotguns. And then they banned OCing completely. So they tried to make firearms a common sight, and they lost them entirely.

Now, my argument is, if you never used the right anyway, then you didn't really lose anything... you already lost it by not exercising it. I never once saw ANYBODY OC a long gun there, sure it was "legal" but kind of dangerous. So it isn't really surprising they lost a right they never exercised until they exercised it in mass.

You can get away with OCing a long gun here, try that in Oakland or San Francisco when OCIng was still "legal" Titanium Frost would be shot off his bicycle.

 

[jeberle40]

I carry empty chamber for multiple reasons. Its undeniably safer, based on I cannot have a misfire while pulling, holstering, etc. If my gun is taken from me, the enemy would have to know it is not chambered initially, giving me the advantage to charge him and cause a possible panic on his end by the gun not immediately firing (even though this whole scenario is unlikely, but possible). Probably the main reason I dont have one ready to go all the time - The gun isn't my go to weapon, my brain is. I dont carry to protect myself from every shadow I see or noise I hear. I carry in case something does happen, I have a gun on me. That's just me though.

 

[Hoosierdood]

I carry empty chamber for multiple reasons. Its undeniably safer, based on I cannot have a misfire while pulling, holstering, etc. If my gun is taken from me, the enemy would have to know it is not chambered initially, giving me the advantage to charge him and cause a possible panic on his end by the gun not immediately firing (even though this whole scenario is unlikely, but possible). Probably the main reason I dont have one ready to go all the time - The gun isn't my go to weapon, my brain is. I dont carry to protect myself from every shadow I see or noise I hear. I carry in case something does happen, I have a gun on me. That's just me though.

Ummmm... wrong thread, dude.

https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...pincus_empty_chamber_carry-3.html#post4239316

 

[the1kidd03]

 

[Spike_351]

I carry empty chamber for multiple reasons. Its undeniably safer, based on I cannot have a misfire while pulling, holstering, etc. If my gun is taken from me, the enemy would have to know it is not chambered initially, giving me the advantage to charge him and cause a possible panic on his end by the gun not immediately firing (even though this whole scenario is unlikely, but possible). Probably the main reason I dont have one ready to go all the time - The gun isn't my go to weapon, my brain is. I dont carry to protect myself from every shadow I see or noise I hear. I carry in case something does happen, I have a gun on me. That's just me though.

two words......Tuller Drill, without one in the chamber it is more likely they will take your gun from you before you can chamber it. If you're nervous about carrying chambered then I suggest either a quality firearm, or training. Most attacks occur within a such close range you may not have a chance to draw let alone chamber your side arm.....another Option......Condition Butterscotch, look it up on YouTube.

 

[DC47374]

I'm sorry Mr. Pincus but if you are going to cite history, please get it correct. Rosa Parks was not sitting in the front of the bus. She chose not to give up her seat at the back of the bus. Your very general and trust me statistics does not advance your case.

 

[DC47374]

duck dynasty wannabes,

Now why you gotta bring Si and Willy into this? I suppose you want to be like the Kardashians....lol. j/k

 

[Rob Pincus]

Doctors and teachers require extensive training and licensing in order to practice their profession. Anyone can hang a shingle out and proclaim themselves a gun guru. I mean no personal disrespect but to equate yourself with a trained and licensed professional is disingenuous and condescending. Also, I fail to see how your average every-day OCer could bring more disrespect upon the gun community than another self-annointed gun guru making a YT video proclaiming it as time to "start killing people".

I'm sure I have a lot more training, study, professional development, continuing education and experience in my profession than a first year teacher or doctor who has earned their "license".... And more than most who practice either profession for a full career. It is "disingenuous and condescending" to ignore that fact.

I publicly and privately condemned/chastised the behavior you referenced as did every other professional in the industry that I am aware of. More importantly, Yeager apologized for the outburst, lawyered up and retracted his statement.... How many confrontational OCers have been publicly criticized by responsible OCers and publicly apologized for their assclownery??

Maybe that is the crux of this issue..... If the OC Community did a better job of policing their own and being critical of the Confrontational OCers, maybe there wouldn't be an "us v them" mentality amongst us... It would simply be Responsible Firearms Owners v Others.

-RJP

 

[ATM]

...

Maybe that is the crux of this issue..... If the OC Community did a better job of policing their own and being critical of the Confrontational OCers, maybe there wouldn't be an "us v them" mentality amongst us... It would simply be Responsible Firearms Owners v Others.

-RJP

Anyone who is anti-OC will continue to assert or imply, as you do, that it is somehow the open carrier's fault for being prepared for a confrontation to occur and mustering the necessary fortitude to not only endure it when it happens but see it through to ensure that those who initiate the actual confrontation are held to some standard of accountability for their actions and assumptions during the encounter.

If that sort of failed argument is not challenged when it comes from a self defense instructor, how will we ever refute the antis when they attempt to portray a well prepared and trained defender as the villain "obviously looking for a fight" and the actual initiator of unlawful force against them as the poor victim.

Rubbish I say, no matter who's mouth or keyboard it spews from. Try again.