Question about traffic stop

[sj kahr k40]

Because you are required by law to carry the license when you are carrying the weapon. I have never called in or ran a computer check when presented with a permit.

Thanks for the answer j706.

 

[finity]

Ummm...I think I answered both of those questions.

Ok i see you edited your post after I read it initially.

As for your last question any break you might have got will be null and void. The title 9 statutes are huge. A person that knowingly gives a officer a hard time in the performance of their duties...well you will get what you get.

So it looks like what you're saying is that if you are challenged in any way the only thing you can do is to use the traffic code to punish someone by finding obscure/petty infractions & charging them with that. Ah, got it. Thanks

I do not take being lied to very well. And it seems that most of the people I deal with had rather lie than breath.

It seems like you might want to do a little reflection on why that is. I'm a fairly law-abiding person & I really don't want to tell a cop I have a gun because of the reaction that could occur. Is that my fault? Maybe it's because if you give an answer that a cop doesn't like then as you said, "The title 9 statutes are huge."

 

[j706]

Ok i see you edited your post after I read it initially.



So it looks like what you're saying is that if you are challenged in any way the only thing you can do is to use the traffic code to punish someone by finding obscure/petty infractions & charging them with that. Ah, got it. Thanks



It seems like you might want to do a little reflection on why that is. I'm a fairly law-abiding person & I really don't want to tell a cop I have a gun because of the reaction that could occur. Is that my fault? Maybe it's because if you give an answer that a cop doesn't like then as you said, "The title 9 statutes are huge."

OK.. but "fairly law abiding" citizens don't lie to the police when asked a legitimate legal question. The outcome of your interaction is based largely upon on how you act. I am very easy to get along with, I just ask for the same in return. All I ask for is a little bit of cooperation and some honesty. I won't lie to you. Is that asking to much?

 

[downzero]

OK.. but "fairly law abiding" citizens don't lie to the police when asked a legitimate legal question. The outcome of your interaction is based largely upon on how you act. I am very easy to get along with, I just ask for the same in return. All I ask for is a little bit of cooperation and some honesty. I won't lie to you. Is that asking to much?

Lying is never a good idea.

Avoiding questions is nearly always a good idea.

There is basically nothing to gain from cooperating with police. That's not to say that rudeness is necessary, but there's no reason to provide any additional information than what is required of the person by law.

I highly doubt that you won't lie to a criminal suspect, either. It is a common tactic for police to lie to criminals. I'd even argue that it is part of their job. The law defends you for lying to people in your custody. It does not do the same for the everyday joe who can go to jail merely for lying to you, depending on the circumstances.

If you ask me a question that I don't think I have to answer, I won't answer it. Last I checked, you are a public servant and you work for me, not the other way around.

I just wish you'd act like it.

 

[HD1911]

I don't tell Officers jack...unless they ask. Then I will tell the truth. No need to divulge any information needlessly. Also, I react or act according to the situation at hand.

But giving all Officers common courtesy and respect can go along way...and making small talk and asking them how their shift is going seems to help.

But there is always that one occasional ******* lol....every dept. has one

 

[downzero]

Common courtesy does not include answering potentially incriminating questions. I say as little as possible.

 

[HD1911]

Common courtesy does not include answering potentially incriminating questions. I say as little as possible.

I'm talking about NOT being a Dickhead and arrogant and such.

 

[finity]

OK.. but "fairly law abiding" citizens don't lie to the police when asked a legitimate legal question that is relevent to the situation &/or that they are required by law to answer.

There, I finished it for you.

The outcome of your interaction is based largely upon on how you act. I am very easy to get along with, I just ask for the same in return. All I ask for is a little bit of cooperation and some honesty. I won't lie to you. Is that asking to much?

So, honestly, have you ever lied to a suspect to get them to confess to something they otherwise wouldn't have?

Have you ever lied to ANYBODY? EVER? If so then you deserve no more respect than you showed them.

This whole thing started by me simply asking if I had to tell a LEO if there was a weapon in the vehicle during a traffic stop. It took several posts before a (I assume) LEO answered the question directly (thanks vitamink). The rest were obtuse answers containing either threats or appeals to my honor to not lie.

Look, the whole point of this is that many people are intimidated by the police & for good reason. People think they HAVE TO answer questions such as "do you have any guns in the vehicle". Unless given a reason to be otherwise I will interact with any police in a respectful manner just as I would when dealing with any other member of the public. NO MORE, NO LESS. A cop doesn't get any more respect just by the position/job they hold than anyone else. If cops want respect they have to give it. Statements like "The title 9 statutes are huge. A person that knowingly gives a officer a hard time in the performance of their duties...well you will get what you get" or "the outcome of your interaction is based largely upon on how you act" shows the arrogance that some cops have & the willingness to use the power given them to harm me further than they would have had i just submitted to their authority. This in a simple interaction in which I just suggested that I would not answer an irrelevent question or would lie about a legal action that caused no harm or threat of harm to the LEO.

 

[OEF5]

It seems like you might want to do a little reflection

I understand that this is the internet, and context is not the same as if you were speaking in person.

Dude I just have to say to you that in this thread you are coming across as a total dillhole, I mean really if you are stopped by the police for any reason and you are not going to cooperate how do you think that in any way is going to help your situation?

It's a simple question that the officer asks you for his protection. Everyone here on this board in one form or another has a plan on how to get home to the family in an emergency. Police on traffic stops do that every day, it's not a WHAT IF, it's a real LIFE. When the officer approaches any vehicle anything can happen. Most good officers can tell how a traffic stop is going to go just based on the persons body language before they even approach the vehicle and once the communication starts that's when they are trying to determine if there is more here than simple speeding.

You mentioned a knife and someother blunt weapon, those items are not a risk to the officer sitting in a patrol vehilce running information, a firearm is. Check the thread on the van being shot up, any traffic stop suspect with a firearm can do that to any police vehilce just as easy.

Now you come across as if you are going to be the hardline I know my rights I'm going to lie to you dude that is going to put any officer on alert that there is more here than a simple speeding stop. If they don't ask good for you, but in my case, I won't be able to get my wallet out without putting my hand near my firearm.

 

[j706]

There, I finished it for you.



So, honestly, have you ever lied to a suspect to get them to confess to something they otherwise wouldn't have?

Have you ever lied to ANYBODY? EVER? If so then you deserve no more respect than you showed them.

This whole thing started by me simply asking if I had to tell a LEO if there was a weapon in the vehicle during a traffic stop. It took several posts before a (I assume) LEO answered the question directly (thanks vitamink). The rest were obtuse answers containing either threats or appeals to my honor to not lie.

Look, the whole point of this is that many people are intimidated by the police & for good reason. People think they HAVE TO answer questions such as "do you have any guns in the vehicle". Unless given a reason to be otherwise I will interact with any police in a respectful manner just as I would when dealing with any other member of the public. NO MORE, NO LESS. A cop doesn't get any more respect just by the position/job they hold than anyone else. If cops want respect they have to give it. Statements like "The title 9 statutes are huge. A person that knowingly gives a officer a hard time in the performance of their duties...well you will get what you get" or "the outcome of your interaction is based largely upon on how you act" shows the arrogance that some cops have & the willingness to use the power given them to harm me further than they would have had i just submitted to their authority. This in a simple interaction in which I just suggested that I would not answer an irrelevent question or would lie about a legal action that caused no harm or threat of harm to the LEO.

1) No I do not lie to people to get them to confess. I learned a long time ago from a very good friend (Now deceased) and outstanding police officer/detective, that a officer usually does not benefit from fabrications. Major crimes like homicides kidnappings ect might not apply here as I have ZERO experience with them. Anyone that has any people skills can sniff out a lie in a heartbeat. Not bragging but I am very good at it.

2) Yes I have told lies. As a matter of fact as a youngster I had quite a problem with it. I was the source of many a gray hair on my parents over stupid stuff like that. I had my mouth washed out with soap on more than one occasion and had my tail whipped on countless occasions. I was a hard case in my youth as I am quite hardheaded and probably a slow learner. But even as a 48 year old father of four and a husband of 26 years, I am still human. I try to do the right thing even when it is not popular. That alone has caused me some problems in my career.

Don't confuse arrogance with discretion. As I believe I have made clear, if you decide to play games during your LEO interaction, be prepared to pay the price. That is just the way the game is played my friend.


And no I don't think I am perfect. Far from it. But I think honesty is always best. Sorry that you seem to disagree.

 

[vitamink]

Any officer in Indianapolis who has been on the street for at least 2 years has been shot at, so guns make them nervous. Police don't know who you are as a person, let alone if you just lost job, or caught your wife in some hot front-door-back-door action with 2 beech grove officers and are about to begin your shooting spree. People get locked up on traffic stops due to misinformation gleaned from the internet and most of the people on here don't want that to happen to you. When people give legal information on here they are giving you a black and white based on the information provided but they don't give you the full logic tree of "if this-then that". The problem, however, is that interactions with the police are dynamic and ever evolving based on the situation. Lets go back to that traffic stop and assume you weren't driving recklessly but you were speeding or made some minor traffic violation. The police officer approaches and states "the reason i stopped you is for speeding, are there any weapons in the car" You reply "i'll keep my hands on the wheel, there is an XD on my hip and my LTCH is in my wallet", You may get a ticket, you may not. Change the scenario. You are approached by the same officer only this time you reply "i know my rights". Now that officer is likely to want to get in your car and find out what you're hiding and he's going to look for anything to tow your vehicle, which isn't hard by the way. Now he asks you to step out of the vehicle. You are upset because the internet told you he can't search if you don't consent or if you're not going to jail. Now you have a ticket (probably multiple) and your vehicle gets an inventory search and your gun is taken to the property room. Revisit the same situation and the officer tells you to step out of the vehicle, you refuse to comply referring to the officer as a jack booted thug, and reply BILLYJOEBOB72 on INGO says..... Police interactions can go downhill really quickly.

 

[LPMan59]

vitamink, i see your point and agree somewhat. but what (i think) some of the guys are saying is that it hardly seems right that a LEO can find a reason to arrest you/tow your car/ etc simply because you know your rights. If I show you my LTCH and DL, why should I have to hand over the weapon? You can't demand my weapon if I am OCing at Walmart, right? You can only ask for my LTCH.

maybe i'm reading all this wrong.....happened before.

 

[OEF5]

The big difference LP is that in Walmart, you are just a citizen exercising your rights.

On a Traffic stop you are now a subject of a crime and therefore detained until the citation is issued, verbal warning, or charged with a subsequent crimes. IE Bench warrant for FTA.

In the traffic stop case the detaining officer has the right to protect himself or herself just as you do in Walmart

I'll add one last thing because everyone gets worked up on getting pulled over for speeding... You are the one with your foot on the gas peddle, if you don't want to get stopped for traffic violations obey the rules of the road, do a walk around of your vehicle everyday to ensure all lights and signals work. If you follow these simple rules then you won't have any interaction with the police officers.

 

[broabc]

This has been a very good thread. I have recently wondered about this situation. I have been in this situation and didn't have a gun on my so I just answered 'no' and moved on but I thought about what might happen if I did have a gun. Would I say 'yes' and hand it over? I can't lie. How do you get out of handing your gun over? and if you're going to hand it over, how do you ensure your safety in doing so if the LEO doesn't know your gun? Would they let you empty it first? (I know, that is probably a stupid question)

 

[broabc]

The big difference LP is that in Walmart, you are just a citizen exercising your rights.

On a Traffic stop you are now a subject of a crime and therefore detained until the citation is issued, verbal warning, or charged with a subsequent crimes. IE Bench warrant for FTA.

In the traffic stop case the detaining officer has the right to protect himself or herself just as you do in Walmart

I'll add one last thing because everyone gets worked up on getting pulled over for speeding... You are the one with your foot on the gas peddle, if you don't want to get stopped for traffic violations obey the rules of the road, do a walk around of your vehicle everyday to ensure all lights and signals work. If you follow these simple rules then you won't have any interaction with the police officers.

Very good point. The best way to stay out of the situation is to keep from getting pulled over. But what do you do if you are riding with someone else?

 

[vitamink]

vitamink, i see your point and agree somewhat. but what (i think) some of the guys are saying is that it hardly seems right that a LEO can find a reason to arrest you/tow your car/ etc simply because you know your rights. If I show you my LTCH and DL, why should I have to hand over the weapon? You can't demand my weapon if I am OCing at Walmart, right? You can only ask for my LTCH.

maybe i'm reading all this wrong.....happened before.

My point is that if you're getting pulled over a cop who is not in the traffic branch or state police, you probably wont get a ticket unless you earn one by being an ass. Should you decide to be an ass then you may end up with a towed car and a novel's worth of tickets. Cops appreciate honestly and usually respond in kind. If you're stopped by traffic or state, you're **** out of luck regardless but you should avoid making the situation worse for yourself.

Now your second statement is an example of what i was talking about earlier. Nothing is as easy as 2+2=4. What i mean is, given the situation you have described, no, there is nothing wrong with you OCing at walmart. If a cop sees you OCing he shouldn't take your gun from you. Now lets add some variables. You are currently CCing at walmart and someone calls the police stating there is a guy planning on robbing the walmart wearing ......... the police are gonna get there point guns at you and prone you out given the info they've received. You don't know this info so you assume that this is one of the jack booted thugs freaking out over you having a gun and tell him to f off as you know your rights...you then go to jail.

 

[finity]

I understand that this is the internet, and context is not the same as if you were speaking in person.

Dude I just have to say to you that in this thread you are coming across as a total dillhole, I mean really if you are stopped by the police for any reason and you are not going to cooperate how do you think that in any way is going to help your situation?

Who said anything about not cooperating? I just asked if I legally had to tell a LEO that I had a gun if he asked. I will gladly produce my DL, registration & proof of insurance. I'll be as courteous & respectful as I would be to any other person I would meet on the street. There will be no ranting about "my rights" (just like I've done on the other 4 or 5 occasions I've ever been pulled over). I just won't offer any more information than necessary & I will be reluctant to answer any irrelevent questions. I don't think I ever said I would lie, I just gave my justifications for doing so should I decide that it may benefit me.

I'm not the dillhole in this thread. I asked a simple direct question. I'm not the one who threatened someone or got upset because they dared question the cops authority.

It's a simple question that the officer asks you for his protection. Everyone here on this board in one form or another has a plan on how to get home to the family in an emergency. Police on traffic stops do that every day, it's not a WHAT IF, it's a real LIFE. When the officer approaches any vehicle anything can happen.

It's a stupid question. I will not be threatening the LEO so him asking if I have a gun is irrelevent to the situation. It makes absolutely no difference to the cops safety what my answer is.

If someone is inclined to harm the cop then they will probably not be honest & tell the cop they are armed anyway. Asking that question to that kind of person won't make any difference to the cops safety either.

The ONLY time it will make any difference WHATSOEVER is on that infinitesimally small probability that they would run into the BG who would do them harm & are stupid enough to admit they are armed when asked.

If the LEO's plan on making it home at the end of the day relies upon the honesty of someone who would kill them then their plan is fatally flawed (no pun intended).

Most good officers can tell how a traffic stop is going to go just based on the persons body language before they even approach the vehicle and once the communication starts that's when they are trying to determine if there is more here than simple speeding.

And that my friend is EXACTLY why one should offer no more info than necessary & refuse to answer irrelevent questions because, as has been said in this very thread, "title 9 statutes are huge". The criminal codes are bigger. Ignorance of the law is no excuse but it happens all the time (note the person on here who got arrested for carrying a handgun without a LTCH to the range, unloaded, in a locked case because he didn't know it was illegal). The longer & more you talk to a cop in an official capacity the more likely it is that, if they really wanted to, they could find SOMETHING to charge you with. Especially if "a person knowingly gives a officer a hard time in the performance of their duties".

Don't confuse arrogance with discretion. As I believe I have made clear, if you decide to play games during your LEO interaction, be prepared to pay the price. That is just the way the game is played my friend.

I think you should be the one to not confuse arrogance with discretion, not me.

I believe you have made clear that you will use whatever coercion you want (well, except for lying) to ensure that I will submit to your authority. You see it all depends on what your definition of "game" is. You seem to be saying that my refusing to answer an irrelevent question about a legal activity or simply to refusing to answer any question at all is "playing games" for which I should be somehow punished. You have become so accustomed to people being "cooperative" to a fault because they are intimidated by your authority that you get defensive just at the mere question or possibility that someone might act otherwise.

And no I don't think I am perfect. Far from it. But I think honesty is always best. Sorry that you seem to disagree.

Yes, I disagree.

Here's a test: What is you SS number? You're bank account number?

I'm sure you will refuse to answer because I have no need to know, they are irrelevent to this discussion & bad things could happen to you if you told me the truth. See where I'm going with this?

Any officer in Indianapolis who has been on the street for at least 2 years has been shot at, so guns make them nervous.

Not all guns. Only guns in the hands of non-LEO's.

Police don't know who you are as a person, let alone if you just lost job, or caught your wife in some hot front-door-back-door action with 2 beech grove officers and are about to begin your shooting spree.

True. Life is full of risks.

People get locked up on traffic stops due to misinformation gleaned from the internet and most of the people on here don't want that to happen to you. When people give legal information on here they are giving you a black and white based on the information provided but they don't give you the full logic tree of "if this-then that". The problem, however, is that interactions with the police are dynamic and ever evolving based on the situation. Lets go back to that traffic stop and assume you weren't driving recklessly but you were speeding or made some minor traffic violation. The police officer approaches and states "the reason i stopped you is for speeding, are there any weapons in the car" You reply "i'll keep my hands on the wheel, there is an XD on my hip and my LTCH is in my wallet", You may get a ticket, you may not. Change the scenario. You are approached by the same officer only this time you reply "i know my rights". Now that officer is likely to want to get in your car and find out what you're hiding and he's going to look for anything to tow your vehicle, which isn't hard by the way. Now he asks you to step out of the vehicle. You are upset because the internet told you he can't search if you don't consent or if you're not going to jail. Now you have a ticket (probably multiple) and your vehicle gets an inventory search and your gun is taken to the property room. Revisit the same situation and the officer tells you to step out of the vehicle, you refuse to comply referring to the officer as a jack booted thug, and reply BILLYJOEBOB72 on INGO says..... Police interactions can go downhill really quickly.

Wow. And all that just because I refused to answer an irrelevent question about a legal activity that (I'll throw in here) that the LEO had no idea about unless I answer the question - then the whole scenario is moot anyway.

YOU were the one who said I didn't legally have to answer, not BILLYJOEBOB72

So tell me again what are the purposes of the 4th & 5th Amendments? You seem to believe they are somehow null & void during a traffic stop where some uppity civilian claims to "know" his rights. Last I checked not consenting to a search or refusing to answer any question other than your identification is not PC for a search.

It really is no wonder why cops get a bad reputation. Out of all the cops who have responded to this thread, most seem to think that threatening & looking for things to find a reason to search & screw someone over for the simple act of not answering a question on a stop over "some minor traffic violation" is OK.

Now your second statement is an example of what i was talking about earlier. Nothing is as easy as 2+2=4. What i mean is, given the situation you have described, no, there is nothing wrong with you OCing at walmart. If a cop sees you OCing he shouldn't take your gun from you. Now lets add some variables. You are currently CCing at walmart and someone calls the police stating there is a guy planning on robbing the walmart wearing ......... the police are gonna get there point guns at you and prone you out given the info they've received. You don't know this info so you assume that this is one of the jack booted thugs freaking out over you having a gun and tell him to f off as you know your rights...you then go to jail.

And what would be the charge? He was doing nothing illegal. Don't you have to have PC to make an arrest? Does PC attach just because someone accuses you of something with no other evidence of it besides their word?

Could I call the police & make up the fact that I just saw vitamink hold up a bank & you could be arrested & charged on my word alone?

(I know this opens up another can of worms but) Do you always have to comply with every order a cop gives you in every situation? If I'm walking in Walmart & a cop just comes up to me & starts yelling at me to get on the ground & I'VE DONE NOTHING WRONG & I refuse what is the law I'm breaking? Granted it wouldn't be smart because if the cop is crazy enough to randomly do that then they are crazy enough to shoot & make something up afterward, but you said I would be going to jail. Why?

 

[jbombelli]

"I do not answer questions without my attorney present."

If the officer then decides to be an a-hole and make things hard on me because I know my rights, then maybe my attorney will get to meet him. Believe me, I'm always looking for a legal way to make a few bucks. Feel free to make it as easy as possible.

I'm not going to argue by the side of the road; I'm not going to resist any orders by the side of the road. But you can rest assured EVERY SINGLE word and action will be scrutinized later in depth, by an attorney who loves to stick it to the police whenever he gets the chance.

Take that as you will.

 

[vitamink]

Yes guns in the hands of non-LEO's because LEOs don't get shot by other LEOs (usually )
every 58 hours a cop is killed in the line of duty.

You don't have to answer the "is there a gun in my car" question if you don't want to. A cop doesn't have to tow your car or write you tickets if he doesn't want to. You can say whatever you want on a traffic stop. You catch more flies with honey.

Yes not consenting isn't PC for a search however if your vehicle is towed for any reason it is inventoried (searched) and whatever is found on that inventory search is used against you (drugs etc)

If a call comes in saying you are there to rob a bank, gives your description and the police show up, you comply and everything is ok then you go free. If you decide to fight the police then you go to jail for resisting.

My advice is do whatever the cop says (oh my god!) don't say anything, and if he's wrong it'll be like winning the lottery. I am me and you are you, so do what you feel is right for you. The cops on this board are honestly trying to help.

 

[vitamink]

"I do not answer questions without my attorney present."

If the officer then decides to be an a-hole and make things hard on me because I know my rights, then maybe my attorney will get to meet him. Believe me, I'm always looking for a legal way to make a few bucks. Feel free to make it as easy as possible.

I'm not going to argue by the side of the road; I'm not going to resist any orders by the side of the road. But you can rest assured EVERY SINGLE word and action will be scrutinized later in depth, by an attorney who loves to stick it to the police whenever he gets the chance.

Take that as you will.

this exactly ^^^