Pentagon to open SEALs, Army Rangers to women

[actaeon277]

How come we never see any women with an opinion in these threads?

I thought 88gt posted.
She may have a problem with your statement.

 

[churchmouse]

I thought 88gt posted.
She may have a problem with your statement.

Oh boy................

 

[gunowner930]

The problem isn't in opening the special services to both sexes, it is in the inevitable lowering of standards to provide "reasonable" accommodation.

If they would (knowing they probably won't) keep the standards up, then it wouldn't matter who came in so long as they met the standard.

Perhaps, bonafide occupational qualifications can be mutually exclusive with reasonable accomodation at times.

So the concern seems to be mostly about standards, and to some extent, tradition.

Does anyone know of instances where the standards have actually been lowered to allow women to do jobs traditionally done by men?

Is there a reasonable expectation that the standards would be lowered if/when they find no women could meet the current standards?

If the standards remain the same then why worry? If women can meet the current standards, they are qualified to do the job. Period.

If they can't meet the current standards, then those of you who oppose it on the basis of "tradition" can rest easy knowing that women will not be SEALs/Rangers.

Yes. The entire Marine Corps has different physical fitness standards for men and women. For a Marine who is a Private (E1)-Corporal (E4), You get promoted based on a cutting score. The cutting score is a combination of a Marine's rifle score, physical fitness test, proficiency and conduct report (physical fitness tests signficantly influence this score), time in service, and time in grade. Now most female Marines could not even pass the male physical fitness test which would cause them to be denied a promotion even if they had the cutting score for it. If women were held to the same fitness standards as men then number of females in Marine Corps would be reduced dramatically. So there is your answer regarding standards being lowered to accomadate women.

I would be ok with women trying out for special forces IF they were held to the same standards as the men, and that includes physical fitness. Everybody knows a female with 5% body fat or whatever who is in great physical condition and is stronger with body weight exercises like chinups or pushups than some dude who looks like 300 lb of **** in a 180 lb bag and avoids strenous physical activity like the plague, but can she even do a 10K hump with 80 lb of gear on her 100 lb body?

Men and women are not built the same. Can some women be stronger than some men, absolutely but it is not the norm and is almost always not the case when both put in equal time and effort to be physical fitness. This is why women have been left out of roles such as this in the past. I would be OK if there exceptional females in special forces but only if they met the same standards of the men. And even that opens a new can of worms when you have 1 female and 40 men all living together in the field.

 

[Survivalcookie]

How is thus destroying our military? If they can do the job why should they be excluded?

Navy seals and other special units have to learn how not to cough...and control other body function...could give up your cover...a man can pee quietly. A woman on her period would leave a trail of where she has been by disposing of her personal hygiene products. Evening peeing on a mission would become a problem. Gross I know. But men and woman are built different and woman would cause many problems men don't.

 

[Survivalcookie]

I have a friend who is trying out for our SWAT team. If she passes the school and get chosen she would be the first female in our long history to be on SWAT. She runs circles around the fittest guys in the process (and they are really good). She is a small gal but drug that 200lb dummy without hesitation. I think she will make a fine SWAT officer, she has to pass the same physical standards as the males, hell the males might need lower standards to keep up with her...haha. She is FAR from alone in this world and I see no problem with giving female the SAME opportunities as the males. No need to lower the standards. BTW, she still looks like a female even with her 3% body fat.

Swat is a walk in the park when comparing it to special forces.

 

[Survivalcookie]

Like I said, I was a Ranger and let me tell you, most men don't want to do it. I think you may have 1 or 2 women that may want to give it a try. I say put them through pre ranger training first (it was called ranger indoctrination program or RIP when I was in) and if they can meet the same standard, then off to ranger school.

I watched this with my grandson on the Military channel the other day...I would say a third did not last the first day.

 

[Trigger Time]

Navy seals and other special units have to learn how not to cough...and control other body function...could and give up your cover...a man can pee quietly. A woman on her period would leave a trail of where she has been by disposing of her personal hygiene products. Evening peeing on a mission would become a problem. Gross I know. But men and woman are built different and woman would cause many problems men don't.

Everything you pack in you pack out.

 

[Jackson]

I thought 88gt posted.
She may have a problem with your statement.

I should have said 'many' rather than 'any'. Either way, I say let 'em try out under the same standards and qualifications. I'm in the camp that thinks almost none could make it. However, even if that's the case, let that be what holds them back. If they really can't hack it, it will be a non-issue. The problem will sort itself out.

If I'm wrong and some can hang, and aren't holding anyone back, no loss. Right now its all just a lot of talk. I'd like to see how it really works in practice.

 

[iChokePeople]

I should have said 'many' rather than 'any'. Either way, I say let 'em try out under the same standards and qualifications. I'm in the camp that thinks almost none could make it. However, even if that's the case, let that be what holds them back. If they really can't hack it, it will be a non-issue. The problem will sort itself out.

If I'm wrong and some can hang, and aren't holding anyone back, no loss. Right now its all just a lot of talk. I'd like to see how it really works in practice.

The issue some have is that historically, in the US armed forces, that's NOT the way it will play out. Look at airborne school pre- and post-"inclusion".

 

[jsharmon7]

Keep the standards the same, and whomever can keep up with the expectations should be allowed to serve.

 

[ces6508]

I have read post after post about how far they can walk or how much weight they can pickup on and on. That is not what war is about. War is about breaking things and killing people. Both are easier to do from 10,000 feet.

My point, can you (man/woman) do it at very close range - hand to hand? Push cold steel in another human? Maybe that is why we have so much PTS. They could walk and pickup weight, but could they kill?

 

[jsharmon7]

I have read post after post about how far they can walk or how much weight they can pickup on and on. That is not what war is about. War is about breaking things and killing people. Both are easier to do from 10,000 feet.

My point, can you (man/woman) do it at very close range - hand to hand? Push cold steel in another human? Maybe that is why we have so much PTS. They could walk and pickup weight, but could they kill?

How do they know the men they put through the program can kill? My understanding is that part of that is the training they undergo, so why would it be different for women? The men have to meet certain expectations, so if a woman can do the same then let them in. I do think that women may be less inclined to kill than men, or may kill for different reasons, but women are just as capable as evidenced by women on Death Row. Nobody really knows how they will perform when it gets down to brass tacks, so it stands to reason (for me anyway) that a properly trained woman can perform as a properly trained man.

 

[churchmouse]

How do they know the men they put through the program can kill? My understanding is that part of that is the training they undergo, so why would it be different for women? The men have to meet certain expectations, so if a woman can do the same then let them in.

I know some woman who would step right up to the part where they get to hurt people. Jumping out of a hovering helo or swimming ashore with all the gear....not so much.

The hand to hand..(now referred to as force on force) I learned from my Ranger uncles was some wicked evil ****. I am not sure a female could take the strikes and stay up-right. Not sure a female could deliver the strikes with the oomph required. Again, just my humble opinion.
There is the torture aspect if captured thing as well.

 

[TopDog]

They will do what they always do to remain politically correct.

They will simply lower the standards so that women can make it.

 

[Westside]

Early today I watched the briefing on the "women in Combat roles" and all branches are creating new "gender neutral MOS specific fitness requirements" these we only be created for certain MOS's.

The example the Marine commander used was the loader in a tank crew. The marine will need to be able to remove the 50lb round from the magazine, Flip it over, then insert it into the breach. This a requirement regardless of gender. They all add that per current military regulations they will continue to re-evaluate requirements and training methods for every MOS every 3 years.


in short I took it that there will be a basic minimum fitness that everyone must pass. then depending on MOS they will have additional Fitness requirements. And they will be the same regardless of gender. They said "you can either lift the 50lb tank round or you can't"

 

[Kutnupe14]

If this is such a great idea , why aren't the folks in those communities asking for women in their units ?

They're an intelligent bunch and I'm sure that if they thought that women in their ranks was a good idea , they'd be there .

Uh, you know that women have been attached to a number of SF units already, right? They DID ask because in the ME it is taboo for male strangers to talk to women.

 

[Kutnupe14]

They will do what they always do to remain politically correct.

They will simply lower the standards so that women can make it.

So because you think that there are those that will use it for political advantage, we should simply continue to discriminate so that they can't?

 

[Kirkd]

Uh, you know that women have been attached to a number of SF units already, right? They DID ask because in the ME it is taboo for male strangers to talk to women.

A .... You know that there are different teams too. I seriously doubt that they are on any A-Teams nor are they 18 series MOS. I would like to see a chick get past SFAS ... Probably not going to happen anytime soon. Gals being assigned to support units to Ranges and SF isnt anything new. They are not involved in DA though.

 

[Tripp11]

Really?
Cause SWAT in a civilized country for limited endurance timeframes is SO much like long term ops in an unfriendly country.

Did you really just compare SWAT to Seals? OMG.....

Swat is a walk in the park when comparing it to special forces.

I'm certain that Denny did not compare SWAT to any type of SF unit, and I read his post twice.

Not trying to speak for him, but I think he was just giving his personal experience when dealing with a female member who has exhibited the physical ability to compete, and even beat, her male counterparts. There were plenty of posters suggesting that a female just can't compete with a male, but he has firsthand experience which says otherwise.

 

[JTScribe]

One of my buddies at work has a son who just made SEAL. Based on how good a shape he is in, I can't see the vast majority of women being able to make it without lowered standards.