Organizing an OC event in Indy! Stand up for your Rights!

[4sarge]

No specific number yet. We'll know closer to time. It's looking like about 30-50 depending on how many people confirm yes.

No, I meant specific number to be deemed a parade ?

 

[BloodEclipse]

Yes, Ohio. And we're working with a guy who organized it and taking a lot of advice from him. He's also Ex-LEO with a lot of time under his belt.



I would. I would have no problem if I'm armed. Unarmed, I'd need to bring a friend...



No specific number yet. We'll know closer to time. It's looking like about 30-50 depending on how many people confirm yes.

I think he meant until we are classified as a parade.
yeah what 4sarge said. LOL

 

[El Cazador]

I'm concerned they don't allow signs/flags for anything but an expensive permitted event. Sounds pretty anti-First amendment. I wonder the rationalization is for the rule?

 

[4sarge]

I'm concerned they don't allow signs/flags for anything but an expensive permitted event. Sounds pretty anti-First amendment. I wonder the rationalization is for the rule?

$$$$ and control

 

[dburkhead]

Chances are we have sufficent evidence and planning to make sure this is NOT considered a parade.

The ordaninces are very clear what considers a parade and a permit. As long as we adhear to these rules we will not be required to disperse. This is why we are having an initial meeting with IMPD to clear up any confusion and keep them in the loop. We want to work with IMPD on this as closely as possible to avoid any issues with them and anyone else.

It's called "contingency planning." You plan for the things that you think are going to happen. Then you plan for the things that you don't expect, but wouldn't be surprised by them happening. Then you plan for the things that really would surprise you when they happen. Then you plan for the things that are so outrageous you hardly even consider the possibility.

And then, when reality persists on handing you things that aren't on any of these plans, you're more likely to be able to pull things out of the various plans to deal with it.

 

[dburkhead]

I'm concerned they don't allow signs/flags for anything but an expensive permitted event. Sounds pretty anti-First amendment. I wonder the rationalization is for the rule?

Blocking traffic and creating a traffic hazard.

 

[SavageEagle]

There is no provision in the code that sets a specific number. I will post the entire Parade code in the next post.

I'm concerned they don't allow signs/flags for anything but an expensive permitted event. Sounds pretty anti-First amendment. I wonder the rationalization is for the rule?

See below.

$$$$ and control

^^^^^ This

It's called "contingency planning." You plan for the things that you think are going to happen. Then you plan for the things that you don't expect, but wouldn't be surprised by them happening. Then you plan for the things that really would surprise you when they happen. Then you plan for the things that are so outrageous you hardly even consider the possibility.

And then, when reality persists on handing you things that aren't on any of these plans, you're more likely to be able to pull things out of the various plans to deal with it.

Yes, we will be considering a secondary plan. And a third. We will be covering all bases and that's why these face to face meetings are so important. I can't stress this enough.

 

[SavageEagle]

The definition of parade is in the City Code:


"Sec. 411-201. Definitions.
As used in this article, the following terms shall have the meanings
ascribed to them:

Director shall mean the director of the department of public safety.

Parade shall mean any parade, march, ceremony, show, exhibition, pageant or
procession of any kind, or rallies or demonstrations, or any similar
display, in or upon any street, park or other outdoor place owned or under
the control of the city.

Parade permit shall mean the permit required by this article.
(Code 1975, § 21-18)"


Sec. 411-202. Duties of permittee.
A permittee under this article shall comply with all permit directions and
conditions and with applicable laws, provisions of this Code and other city
ordinances.
(Code 1975, § 21-19)

Sec. 411-203. Public conduct during parades.
(a) Interference. No person shall unreasonably hamper, obstruct, impede
or interfere with any parade or parade assembly or with any person, vehicle
or animal participating or used in a parade.
(b) Driving through parades. No driver of any vehicle shall drive between
the vehicles or persons comprising a parade when the vehicles or persons are
in motion and are conspicuously designated as a parade.
(c) Parking on parade route. The director shall have the authority, when
reasonably necessary, to prohibit or restrict the parking of vehicles along
a highway, or part thereof, constituting a part of the route of a parade.
The police force shall post signs to such effect, and it shall be unlawful
for any person to park or leave unattended any vehicle in violation thereof.

(Code 1975, § 21-20)

Sec. 411-204. Violations and penalties.
(a) It shall be unlawful for any person to stage, present or conduct, or
attempt to stage, present or conduct, a parade without first having obtained
a permit therefor as provided in this article, or which shall otherwise
violate any of the provisions of this article.
(b) It shall be unlawful for any person to participate in a parade on the
city streets for which a permit has not been granted.
(c) It shall be unlawful for any person to fail to comply with all
directions and conditions of the parade permit issued pursuant to this
article.
(d) Any person violating the provisions of any section of this article
shall be punished as prescribed in section 103-3.
(Code 1975, § 21-21)

DIVISION 2. PARADE PERMITS

Sec. 411-221. When required.
(a) Except as provided in subsection (b), no person shall engage in,
participate in, aid, form or start any parade, unless a parade permit
therefor has been obtained from the director as provided in this division.
(b) The provisions of subsection (a) shall not apply to:
(1) Funeral processions;
(2) Lawful picketing in a labor dispute or orderly processions on the
sidewalks that do not violate the provisions of this Code or other city
ordinances;
(3) A governmental agency acting within the scope of its functions.
(Code 1975, § 21-32)

Sec. 411-222. Application.
Any person seeking the issuance of a parade permit as required by this
division shall file an application therefor with the director on forms
provided by his office, which application shall be governed by the following
provisions:
(1) Filing period. An application for a parade permit shall be filed with
the director not less than thirty (30) days before the date on which it is
proposed to conduct the parade. The application shall be signed by the
applicant and notarized.
(2) Contents. The application for a parade permit shall set forth the
following information:
a. The name, address and telephone number of the person seeking to conduct
the parade;
b. If the parade is proposed to be conducted for, on behalf of or by an
organization, the name, address and telephone number of the headquarters of
the organization and of the authorized and responsible heads of such
organization;
c. The name, address and telephone number of the person who will be the
parade chairman and who will be responsible for its conduct;
d. The date when the parade is to be conducted;
e. The route to be traveled, the starting point and the termination point;
f. The approximate number of persons who, and animals and vehicles which,
will constitute such parade; the type of animals and a description of the
vehicles;
g. The hours when such parade will start and terminate;
h. A statement as to whether the parade will occupy all or only a portion
of the width of the streets proposed to be traversed;
i. The location by streets of any assembly areas for the parade;
j. The time at which units of the parade will begin to assemble at any
such assembly area or areas;
k. If the parade is designed to be held by and on behalf of or for any
person other than the applicant, the applicant for the permit shall file
with the director a communication in writing from the person proposing to
hold the parade, authorizing the applicant to apply for the permit on his
behalf;
l. The purpose of the parade;
m. Any additional information which the director shall find reasonably
necessary for a fair determination as to whether a permit should be issued.
(3) Late applications. The director, where good cause is shown therefor,
shall have the authority to consider any application under this division
which is filed less than thirty (30) days before the date such parade is
proposed to be conducted.
(4) Application fee. A fee of ten dollars ($10.00) to cover the expenses
incident to processing shall be paid by the person applying for the permit
at the time of filing of the application. All fees collected shall be
transmitted to the controller.
(Code 1975, § 21-33)

Sec. 411-223. Indemnification agreement and insurance.
(a) The applicant for a parade permit, and any other person on whose
behalf the application is made, by filing such application, represents,
stipulates, contracts and agrees that he will jointly or severally indemnify
and hold the city harmless against liability for any and all claims for
damage to property, or injury to, or death of, persons arising out of or
resulting from the issuance of the permit or the conduct of the parade or
its participants.
(b) No parade permit shall be issued unless the applicant therefor shall
obtain a comprehensive general liability insurance policy, issued by an
insurance company authorized to do business in the state, with coverage that
includes the assembly area, the parade route, the disbanding area of the
parade and any other area used by the participants of the parade. The city
shall be named as an additional insured on the policy. The policy limits of
said insurance shall not be less than:
TABLE INSET:

Property damage $5,000.00 each occurrence
Bodily injury or death 25,000.00 each person;
50,000.00 each occurrence

(c) At the time of the application for the parade permit, satisfactory
proof that the required insurance has been obtained must be presented to the
director. The requirement for satisfactory proof may be complied with either
by depositing the insurance policy itself or by furnishing a certificate of
insurance.
(d) The requirements of subsections (b) and (c) of this section shall not
be applicable to parades composed of pedestrians only and which do not
include any vehicles or animals. If motor vehicles are to be included,
evidence of public liability insurance with the same limits on such vehicles
may be accepted in lieu of the insurance required in subsections (b) and
(c).
(Code 1975, § 21-34)

Sec. 411-224. Standards for issuance.
The director shall issue a permit as provided by this division when, from a
consideration of the application and from such other information as may
otherwise be obtained, he shall find that:
(1) The conduct of the parade will not substantially interrupt the safe
and orderly movement of other traffic contiguous to its route.
(2) The conduct of the parade will not require the diversion of so great a
number of police officers of the city to properly police the line of
movement and the areas contiguous thereto as to prevent normal police
protection to the city.
(3) The conduct of the parade will not require the diversion of so great a
number of ambulances as to prevent normal ambulance service to portions of
the city other than that to be occupied by the proposed line of march and
areas contiguous thereto.
(4) The concentration of persons, animals and vehicles at assembly points
of the parade will not unduly interfere with proper fire and police
protection of, or ambulance service to, areas contiguous to such assembly
areas.
(5) The conduct of such parade will not interfere with the movement of
firefighting equipment en route to a fire.
(6) The conduct of the parade is not reasonably likely to cause injury to
persons or property, to provoke disorderly conduct or create a disturbance.
(7) The parade is scheduled to move from its point of origin to its point
of termination expeditiously and without unreasonable delays en route.
(8) The parade is not to be held for the sole purpose of advertising any
product, goods or event, and is not designed to be held purely for private
profit; however, the prohibition against advertising any product, goods or
event shall not apply to signs identifying organizations or sponsors
furnishing or sponsoring floats or transportation for the parade.
(Code 1975, § 21-35)

Sec. 411-225. Notice of rejection.
The director shall act upon the application for a parade permit within eight
(8) days after the filing thereof. If the director disapproves the
application, he shall mail to the applicant, by registered mail within eight
(8) days after the date upon which the application was filed, a notice of
his action stating the reasons for his denial of the permit.
(Code 1975, § 21-36)

Sec. 411-226. Appeal procedure.
Any person aggrieved by the action of the director on a parade permit
application shall have the right to appeal the denial to the license review
board. The appeal shall be taken within five (5) days after receipt of the
notice of denial. The license review board shall act upon the appeal within
five (5) days after its receipt.
(Code 1975, § 21-37)

Sec. 411-227. Alternate permit.
The director, in denying an application for a parade permit, shall be
empowered to authorize the conduct of the parade on a date, at a time or
over a route different from that named by the applicant. An applicant
desiring to accept an alternate permit shall, within five (5) days after
notice of the action of the director, file a written notice of acceptance
with the director. An alternate parade permit shall conform to the
requirements of and have the effect of a parade permit under this article.
(Code 1975, § 21-38)

Sec. 411-228. Notice of issuance.
Immediately upon the issuance of a parade permit, the director shall send a
copy thereof to the following:
(1) The office of the mayor;
(2) The director of the department of public works;
(3) The director of the department of parks and recreation, if the parade
is in a park;
(4) The chief of the fire force.
(Code 1975, § 21-39; G.O. 15, 2001, § 15)

Sec. 411-229. Contents of permit.
Each parade permit shall state the following information:
(1) The date of the parade;
(2) The starting time and termination time of the parade;
(3) The portions of the streets to be traversed that may be occupied by
the parade;
(4) The number of persons, animals and motor vehicles that will be in the
parade;
(5) Such other information as the director shall find necessary to the
enforcement of this article.
(Code 1975, § 21-40)

Sec. 411-230. Possession of permit.
The parade chairman or other person heading or leading such activity shall
carry the parade permit upon his person during the conduct of the parade.
(Code 1975, § 21-41)

Sec. 411-231. Revocation.
The director shall have the authority to revoke a parade permit issued
pursuant to this division upon violation of the standards for issuance as
prescribed in this division.
(Code 1975, § 21-42)

Sec. 411-232. Designated parade route.
(a) Except where the applicant for a parade permit demonstrates to the
satisfaction of the director that there are factors requiring an exception,
all parades for which a permit is required shall confine themselves to and
follow this designated route: South on Pennsylvania Street from Saint Clair
Street to Ohio Street; west on Ohio Street from Pennsylvania Street to
Meridian Street; and north on Meridian Street from Ohio Street to Saint
Clair Street.
(b) Except where the director determines that special circumstances make
it unnecessary, traffic shall be excluded (during the time reserved for a
parade) from the streets and alleys located within the area encompassed by
Illinois Street on the west, Market Street and Monument Circle on the south,
Delaware Street on the east, and Twelfth Street on the north. Provided, that
traffic shall not be excluded from Illinois Street, Market Street, Monument
Circle, Delaware Street, Twelfth Street, Eleventh Street or Interstate 65.
(c) Other provisions of this chapter notwithstanding, the director may
issue a permit and designate a parade route which includes Monument Circle
for parades that have the ability to offer and deliver a split television
feed for international distribution.
(Code 1975, § 21-43)

 

[SavageEagle]

Again, our take on not needing a permit is explained in the second post of this thread.

 

[SavageEagle]

Jack, I'm not sure what happened to your post, but I would like you to know that I know you're not one of the six, but I think you're a hoot and would love to have you join us. You would be a great asset and I for one would be proud to have you with us.

 

[MoparMan]

Off Topic,
SE, You may pass Scutter in post count with just this thread.

 

[SavageEagle]

Could be, but I doubt it. I hadn't even noticed I've been repped! WOW! 6!

Not that I really care about post count. If they want to drop me to 0 that's fine. I just care that this Walk goes smoothly.

 

[IndyBeerman]

The definition of parade is in the City Code:


"Sec. 411-201. Definitions.
As used in this article, the following terms shall have the meanings
ascribed to them:

Director shall mean the director of the department of public safety.

Parade shall mean any parade, MARCH, ceremony, SHOW, EXHIBITION, pageant or procession of any kind, or rallies or DEMONSTRATIONS, or any SIMILAR DISPLAY, in or upon any street, park or other outdoor place owned or under the control of the city.

Parade permit shall mean the permit required by this article.

(Code 1975, § 21-18)"

Any of the above BOLD UNDELINED can be interpreted as "The Walk". specifically the last one.....SIMILAR DISPLAY, a "Walk" is a form of a March that is exactly how it will be defined by the Director of Public.Safety. I'll bet money one it.

Also type in Google search define march and you'll get as an example from wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn:

A procession of people walking together; "the march went up Fifth Avenue"

Maybe the thought should be entertained of having this on Private property and not on public.

I know it will not be as effective of being on the circle, BUT, getting the TV and Radio media there would still get the message out. Heck maybe even put a bug into Fox News's ear could possibly get airtime also.

As a side note, I think if a long walk is planned that it could turn into a potentially dangerous situation if the wrong things happen.

Believe in Murphy's Law, if it can go wrong it will, and we don't want anything to go wrong with 30-50 people walking along a long distance, and have something that could reach a boiling point in a hurry.

Make short, make sweet and direct to the point to not raise any public outcry.

 

[SavageEagle]

Any of the above BOLD UNDELINED can be interpreted as "The Walk". specifically the last one.....SIMILAR DISPLAY, a "Walk" is a form of a March that is exactly how it will be defined by the Director of Public.Safety. I'll bet money one it.

Also type in Google search define march and you'll get as an example from wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn:

A procession of people walking together; "the march went up Fifth Avenue"

Maybe the thought should be entertained of having this on Private property and not on public.

I know it will not be as effective of being on the circle, BUT, getting the TV and Radio media there would still get the message out. Heck maybe even put a bug into Fox News's ear could possibly get airtime also.

As a side note, I think if a long walk is planned that it could turn into a potentially dangerous situation if the wrong things happen.

Believe in Murphy's Law, if it can go wrong it will, and we don't want anything to go wrong with 30-50 people walking along a long distance, and have something that could reach a boiling point in a hurry.

Make short, make sweet and direct to the point to not raise any public outcry.

I understand your concern about the definition of parade, but as was discussed at length at the meeting...

DIVISION 2. PARADE PERMITS

Sec. 411-221. When required.
(a) Except as provided in subsection (b), no person shall engage in,
participate in, aid, form or start any parade, unless a parade permit
therefor has been obtained from the director as provided in this division.
(b) The provisions of subsection (a) shall not apply to:
(1) Funeral processions;
(2) Lawful picketing in a labor dispute or orderly processions on the
sidewalks that do not violate the provisions of this Code or other city
ordinances;
(3) A governmental agency acting within the scope of its functions.
(Code 1975, § 21-32)

As you can see, if you read the code carefully, as long as we have no animals or vehicles FOLLOWING us, and we do not use the streets, we are not anything but an orderly procession on the sidewalk that will not violate the provisions of the code.

That is our angle and it's plain and clear. We do not require a permit.

To address your concern of Public or private, that would defeat the whole purpose. It's ok to carry anything on private property that is yours or you have permission to be on. Most people do not know it's legal to openly carry in public. Some don't even know it's legal to carry at all unless you're a police officer.

That is part of the point.

I love murphy's law because it's not true. People could have taken over the Tea Party with guns and mass murdered everyone there. It didn't happen. ACORN could have invaded the Tea Party and over shouted, over ran the crowd. They did not.

Do not dwell on the negitives. Prepare for them, but do not dwell on them. That will be the downfall of ANYTHING.

 

[bowhunter_1978]

I understand your concern about the definition of parade, but as was discussed at length at the meeting...



As you can see, if you read the code carefully, as long as we have no animals or vehicles FOLLOWING us, and we do not use the streets, we are not anything but an orderly procession on the sidewalk that will not violate the provisions of the code.

That is our angle and it's plain and clear. We do not require a permit.

To address your concern of Public or private, that would defeat the whole purpose. It's ok to carry anything on private property that is yours or you have permission to be on. Most people do not know it's legal to openly carry in public. Some don't even know it's legal to carry at all unless you're a police officer.

That is part of the point.

I love murphy's law because it's not true. People could have taken over the Tea Party with guns and mass murdered everyone there. It didn't happen. ACORN could have invaded the Tea Party and over shouted, over ran the crowd. They did not.

Do not dwell on the negitives. Prepare for them, but do not dwell on them. That will be the downfall of ANYTHING.

So other than the associated permits and fees, if you believe in this wholeheartedly, pay up and make it a march so you can tote signs, banners, wear matching shirts to get your message across? The way I see it, no one will get the point other than "Because I can" unless one of you are asked directly about what you are doing.

 

[ATF Consumer]

So other than the associated permits and fees, if you believe in this wholeheartedly, pay up and make it a march so you can tote signs, banners, wear matching shirts to get your message across? The way I see it, no one will get the point other than "Because I can" unless one of you are asked directly about what you are doing.

So are you volunteering to donate funds for this then?

 

[henktermaat]

So other than the associated permits and fees, if you believe in this wholeheartedly, pay up and make it a march so you can tote signs, banners, wear matching shirts to get your message across? The way I see it, no one will get the point other than "Because I can" unless one of you are asked directly about what you are doing.

Perhaps you can donate to the cause .

Either way, public education is the point.

 

[bowhunter_1978]

So are you volunteering to donate funds for this then?

IF, I were attending and wanted so much for this to go off without a hitch, then yes, I would be willing to a portion of the funds. Don't get me wrong, I hope all goes well at the "walk" but see no point in trying to skirt the local laws regarding this type of event.

 

[BloodEclipse]

So other than the associated permits and fees, if you believe in this wholeheartedly, pay up and make it a march so you can tote signs, banners, wear matching shirts to get your message across? The way I see it, no one will get the point other than "Because I can" unless one of you are asked directly about what you are doing.

A march or parade involves shutting down the streets. We can move amongst the pubic just fine upon the sidewalks and avoid all the fees and paperwork. Our message will get out via Facebook, Twitter, Blogs, Youtube and such. If you walked with us how many people would you tell about it?

 

[bowhunter_1978]

Perhaps you can donate to the cause .

Either way, public education is the point.

What education are you going to give them? I think the points of the event are becoming blurred. Is it public education? Is it showing the politicians that you enjoy and will exercise your rights? Is it the fact that "open carry" is allowed in Indiana? See what I am getting at?