oops now we know why she left

[kettlebell03]

You don't know if the young lady you keep refering to is even involved in this in anyway. But now she is thanks to you. You say you have a teenage daughter. Well if she was the one involved would you want everyone knowing and talking about it on a forum?
And don't give me that " well their in the public eye and are fare game" crap.
I agree that this thread should be closed not just because it's not directly related to firearms but out of decency. If you want to read and write about this kind of stuff go to The Enquirer or People Magizine and have at it.
Nuf-said

Scott

While the subject of this thread may not have to do with a specific firearm, it has everything to do with the shooting sports. Hence it's placement in the shooting sports sub-forum. As Hickman said, many of us have shot matches with these people and are fans of Team Glock. The ramfications of these events on Team Glock are huge, and they will have an impact on not only the shooting sports but the parties' lives as well. I don't think that civil discussion regarding these events and their impact on the sport is wrong. Please quit your finger pointing. If this subject doesn't interest you and you do not wish to discuss it then visit another topic.

 

[rvb]

I don't buy the "100 years ago" thing. Guess what? Last time I checked a calendar, it said August of 2011, not 1906. Yes, 100 years ago, it was perfectly normal for a 14yo girl to get married and start having kids. That was then. This is now. Yes, 18 is an arbitrary age that someone thought sounded good. But guess what? That's what the law is. Break it and pay the consequences.

agree

Even back then, I don't think it was normal for the <18 girls to be involved w/ a 40+ yr old (who is MARRIED). In fact, I think the adultery and age difference would have even been less acceptable than today. So to say some portion of this is acceptable because it "used" to be ok is just a loony argument. I agree that sometimes the statutory rape thing is applied too often; eg to an 18-20 yr old w/ a <18 yr old consensual partner, especially those who have been together a long time (and especially in this day of registration, internet tracking, etc), but this is a far cry from that situation. These are legit charges, imo.

Money and Power have been used throughout history for old farts to get access to teenage queens, but I don't buy it was ever normal or acceptable. It sure the hell isn't now.

again, my

-rvb

 

[bwframe]

I agree that this thread should be closed not just because it's not directly related to firearms but out of decency.

Decency??? So in covering it up, it can happen again?

Over half of the people posting in this thread are parents, most of the other half likely will be. These folks need to learn from this.

Is it not obvious, even in the dire seriousness of this tragedy, that there are still those who would marginalize the actions of a pedophile?
They are among us, just the same as Billy Abbate was...

Incidentally, those young ladies will get by this. They are the toughest of the tough.

 

[Davegrave]

I'm not downplaying the actions of a pedophile. I'm outright saying that Abbate isn't one.

Again. He's an idiot. He committed a crime as we as a society have deemed it. He will suffer for his actions. Greatly.

He abused the trust of the girl and her parents. He disgraced himself. He's a idiot with no self control. If the girls dad were to lay a whoopin on him I'd probly high five him for it.

None of that makes him a pedophile.

Pedophile:
The word comes from the Greek: παῖς (paîs), meaning "child," and φιλία (philía), "friendly love" or "friendship".[28]
Pedophilia is used for individuals with a primary sexual interest in prepubescent children aged 13 or younger.[1]
Hebephilia is defined as individuals with a primary sexual interest in 11-14 year old pubescents.[] Other experts such as Karen Franklin consider classifications like hebephilia to be "pretextual" diagnoses which should not be considered disorders.

That's from Wiki. 14 and up, puberty completed... isn't even deemed worthy of a name or consideration for a disorder in the psychological community.
Because again, NATURE told her and her body that she was good to go. It's illegal. It's creepyish. But it's not unnatural. And he's not the one that needs to be pulled into the alley and have his brains blown out. Whatever his sentence is will be plenty for punishment in addition to losing everything.
He didn't drive up in a van and snatch her off the street.

Maybe someone should send Jesus a copy of the applicable statutes so he starts checking ID on girls before he flips the switch to "on" in their reproductive organs.

Again, IF it was consensual she shares the blame. If a 15 year old boy committed a heinous murder, and his parents were pleading for his life saying he was just a boy, 95% of us would say he was man enough to do the killing and he was old enough to know the consequences. Why is he old enough to grasp the consequences of his actions but this girl isn't competent to say what she will or won't enjoy.

Here's how you know a pedophile vs a guy that likes too young, but matured and consenting girls. The pedophile destroys a child. He/she will never be the same again and no matter how badly you punish the pedophile it won't come close to retribution for the act he committed. His victims don't giggle and tell their friends that they're in love and how great he is.

Another example, if the roles were reversed and the instuctor was the woman and the student was a boy the outrage would be 1/10th. Most guys would be saying "what the big deal, wish it woulda happened to me".
But in 2011 we all still think girls are fools that can't make their own choices? They're all easily taken in by every 2 bit swindler and they need to be saved from themselves? What we have here is a bunch of dads with little girls who in their heads will remain perfect virtuous virgins till their wedding nights. Well god help you all when you find out what teenage girls are actually into these days because there's gonna be a lot of boyfriend killins and suicides around here.

 

[bwframe]

Pay close attention because...

...They are among us, just the same as Billy Abbate was...

 

[techres]

Met the likely victim at the NRA convention. Nice lady.

How sad.

 

[Fargo]

I'm gonna be the jerk that everyone hates here.

But it sounds from the articles, (and if I'm wrong I'll join in with the "shoot him in his face in the woods" bunch), as if it was consensual.

Yes I know that at that age she doesn't have the RIGHT to consent. And it's super taboo to say that sleeping with a girl under 18 is anything other than the sickest most revolting thing on earth. But 18 was picked arbitrarily. Someone just said 18 one day and all of a sudden younger made you a freak.

For 1000's of years humans have had sex at the age of maturity. Great kings, hero's, politicians have all married and had children born by girls in their teens.

Everyone is calling him a pedophile. It always seems to me like people who jump on the "string him up and bleed him out, that girl was only 17 years and 4 months old" bandwaggon are very insecure. I always feel like they are trying to make up for their own guilty feelings somehow.

I don't know, but to me a pedophile is someone who is attracted to undeveloped children. By 15 or 16 most girls are developed pretty fully. Nature made their bodies ready to bear children. All the features that come along with that, by natures design, attract the sexual attention of men. Being attracted to a fully developed female is a natural reaction. It's subconscious. You can't legislate away a man being attracted to a fertile woman with full breasts and widened hips emitting pheromones developed by our creator to arouse the opposite sex. It's as impossible as declaring hurricaned and floods illegal.


I'd be willing to bet that there are states where it's legal for a man to marry a 15 year old girl with a parents consent. If not states, I know for sure countries. Is a guy that is willing to get a pat on the back from mom and dad and sign a marriage certificate and do it legally also a rapist and pedophile? If a girl at that age really has no capacity to consent then shouldn't the parents be charged with accessory to rape?

Again, I'm not saying this guy isn't a world class idiot. I'm not saying he's not a fool for throwing everything away over this. I'm not saying he was right. I'm not saying it doesn't show some big character flaws if a guy is only attracted to young girls that he can "control". But his wife seems like a strong woman. The girl seems like a smart, strong, confident, level headed girl that made a choice that she felt comfortable with. I bet she's a lot more emotionally secure and intellectually acute than most girls 3 years older than her that get pushed into a life of drugs and porn. But they are "grown women" and can make their own choices. I don't get the "preying on the weak" vibe from this story. I get the "idiot that couldn't keep it in his pants and threw away a life that most gun nuts would lose a leg to have" vibe.

I'm just saying it sounds like she was very much in favor of the relationship. If so I doubt it "damaged" her any more than if she had a boyfriend her own age to engage is such activities with. If she was in favor of it, I'd say this public uproar is far more damaging to her than a romance with an older guy.

As I said, if I'm wrong and he really coerced or forced her, and that's not just legal jargon associated with the charges, then there isn't punishment enough for him.

I know no one will rep me for this post. No one will post a thumbs up or +1. It's just too taboo. The only responses will be that I must not have kids, or I must be a rapist to think that way. Just a guy being honest and unafraid to say that not every law lives up to it's good intentions.

You are correct that sexual relations with a post-pubescent person is not pedophilia. However, I think there are some real problems with your argument beyond that.

For a variety of reasons, your 100 years ago argument is extremely flawed. For one, adultery was illegal back then so he was a criminal back then too. For two, marriage with 14-15 year olds back then was nothing like banging your friends daughter that you coach.

Parental controls and supervision of their children were far more involved then than now. Back then, the "asking her hand from her father" was a legal requirement, not a romantic formality. Parents had control over who their minor children wed and the idea that their daughter would be traveling around the country without them with an adult male would be unheard of.

Plus, this is a teacher/supervisor/mentor to pupil relationship. That in itself skews the relationship as the older person sits in a position of trust. Person's in positions of TRUST have an extremely high obligation not to abuse that trust. It matters far less to me in position of trust cases whether the victim was a willing participant.

When you undertake a position of trust, you agree that you are giving up those excuses and protections. You voluntarily bind yourself to a higher standard. That is why indiana's age of consent is 16 UNLESS YOU SIT IN A POSITION OF TRUST. At that point it jumps to 18 in most cases.

Bottom line, while not a pedophile, dude is a criminal and IMO deserves severe punishment. This is primarily because he sat in a position of trust in relation to the victim. This de facto makes him a predator in my book.

Additionally, I have to take exception to your notion that secret sexual relations by a married man with his 15 year old pupil is somehow a malum prohbitum arbitrary constraint imposed by this particular society. That is simply not the case. The offenses we are talking about have NEVER been considered anything but malum in se, or wrong in itself. I defy you to show me a society where it would not be considered wrong to bang your friends kid behind your wife and everyone's back while posing as her teacher.

Best,

Joe

 

[Kirk Freeman]

I defy you to show me a society where it would not be considered wrong to bang your friends kid behind your wife and everyone's back while posing as her teacher.

Pffft, you're giving me easy ones. Only the most advanced culture in the world. Now, I'm off to smoke cigarettes and bicycle around in black socks.


[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHuvnGNKcnc&feature=fvwrel[/ame]

 

[tnek]

Thread should be closed and deleted. This serves no purpose other than drawing attention to the victims. One I have only seen pics of and one I don't want to know who it is out of manors.
It is like picking at a scab.

 

[edsinger]

Over half of the people posting in this thread are parents, most of the other half likely will be. These folks need to learn from this.

I am one of those. I am struggling with the posts here. Its all so secularized at this point.

Look this guy is a POS.......done


But the details of this are causing issues with peoples belief systems. As it should. This is a forum, many topics, this is a good discussion. it should not be closed as long as it stays civil.....

 

[ElsiePeaRN]

Why aren't they being taught that their self worth has nothing to do with their sex appeal?

No matter how hard parents of pre-teen and teenage girls try to teach this to their daughters, the fact is that the fashion, entertainment and advertising industries are relentless in their drive to make money off the sexualization of teen girls and many men reward them for it.

No matter how hard we tell our daughters that their self-esteem should NOT be based on their perceived sense of sex-appeal, our society constantly barrages them with the exact opposite message. If society seems to value them primarily for that, why should they believe their mothers?

The sexualization of women of any age in order to sell things to men, and men lapping it up and begging for more, is what leads to our daughters believing they need to be sexy to be valued. It's a battle every parent has to fight every hour of every day.

 

[edsinger]

It's a battle every parent has to fight every hour of every day.

I hear you...believe me...I still have a line that is not crossed, but it is pushed....although I am a hard arse.....I am challeged...


I feel sorry for my daughter's first boyfriend......

 

[PTRDRGN]

4. Billy Abbate stepped across the line no question but the parents of the victim share some responsibility as well. Their trust of a friend was violated but they should have had more closely monitored the situation.


I think its hard to place blame on the parents, could happen to any of us. How do you know the "victim" wasn't a willing participant? In most cases, age makes it "molest" by law, but not necessarily the case. I'm by no means saying it is ok, just changes things a little.

I totally disagree with the above.

Just ask any male teacher, instructor, boss or supervisor. A whole lot of 15 year olds flirt with full intention of following with action. It IS the responsibility of the person in authority to be above reproach. It IS also the responsibility of the parents to know this can and does happen.

Who let her get into this position? Who let her be alone and unsupervised with this guy? Who was looking out for her and her future? She is not an adult so they have the responsibility to protect her and that includes from herself if need be. She is too young to make these decisions. They should have done better.

My previous comment did not come across as intended. This is not an adequate place to discuss such a topic. I am by NO means saying this is ok, consensual or not, the blame goes on him. I just think there is a difference between child molest and sexual misconduct with a minor. My other comment about parenting, meant that I think no matter how close you watch your children, you can't be with them all the time, which is where my "it could happen to any of us" comment came from. Those on here that know me, know how I feel about such an issue. I hope the "system" works.

 

[edsinger]

My other comment about parenting, meant that I think no matter how close you watch your children, you can't be with them all the time, which is where my "it could happen to any of us" comment came from.

Sad part is its true.
How many of us would let our daughter join team Glock? think about it...Now ask your self if this could happen to you?

Scary isn't it?

 

[Coach]

Ok, I think you misunderstand something. I have a daughter that age and I think this guy has some serious issues. No way am I condoning what he has done. As for the not going to police, I can surely understand that.

All that being said, As I reexamined and reread things, some of the details that were released imply this man is a predator. I agree.

As for the 100 years ago 'types' I am also not naive enough to let some government law passed to an arbitrary age cloud that fact that it was common in most countries around the world and legal including the US and has only recently (last 100 years or so) been considered taboo. It is not that I agree with it, but it was fact, times were different. I have a suspicion that the longer you go back the less males were available due to wars etc so it was really a matter of necessity at some point.

I find it odd when I actually looked it up, Japan (13) really shocked me.
Anyhow, the age in the US is 16 and up, but some countries are lower. Some of these are surprising to me. I expect Afghanistan to be low but look at the Vatican State? Wow. Times sure have changed. Another oddity, look at Botswana (16f/14m)......WTH?

And as for the US, California has the age of 18 listed, I wonder how that works out...

Worldwide Ages of Consent

As someone earlier pointed out, I also do not think this is pedophilia per se, I think it more of a sexual predator scumbag. He is sick in the head.

I understand things just fine. This is not 100 years ago. We have come a ways since then. Women get to vote, blacks don't have to sit in the back and go to a different school. 18 is the age and it is not just a number picked by the govt, it is what the majority of the society agree with.

Things have changed and in many ways for the better. I hope the sex continues for Abbate in jail and that hell is hot, and he is surrounded by like minded people.

It does not matter when a young lady develops the physical features that attract men and boys. They are off limits until that are adults and it does not matter what they look like. For 45 year old married men they are off limits as well. If she threw herself at him he should have turned those advances aside.

There are some people on here that don't get it, but it is not me.

 

[edsinger]

I understand things just fine. This is not 100 years ago. We have come a ways since then. Women get to vote, blacks don't have to sit in the back and go to a different school. 18 is the age and it is not just a number picked by the govt, it is what the majority of the society agree with.

True its not the late 1800's anymore. I agree. So when did society pick that age? I personally think it should be higher but then I regress to drinking age, draft age, and others. We are not consistent anymore. Granted, a 15 year old girl ids off limits to any boy let alone some old pervert......but this is a societal change that is for the better. We now have that luxury. The boys don't have to work the farm at 12, the girls can get a chance to experience things that their counterpart did not have 50 years ago. This is a good thing...I know, as I have a daughter this age. Remember, I am not condoning this perverts actions. It is unacceptable in todays society so the punishment is due. Oh yeah, one slight problem, 18 is not the age......under certain circumstances it is but it is mostly 16..In the US anyway and surprisingly most countries now.

Things have changed and in many ways for the better. I hope the sex continues for Abbate in jail and that hell is hot, and he is surrounded by like minded people.

I agree 100% with you here........

It does not matter when a young lady develops the physical features that attract men and boys. They are off limits until that are adults and it does not matter what they look like. For 45 year old married men they are off limits as well. If she threw herself at him he should have turned those advances aside.

Again you are correct and this is what makes this dude a predator, a sick one at that. I would argue they are off limits to a 20 year old married man as well..Would you not agree with that? We as adults KNOW better and are given a trust. This craphead decided to break that trust. he deserves what he gets.

There are some people on here that don't get it, but it is not me.

Oh I get it, but I guess we differ on the details.

Lets change the argument a second. If the teacher was a smoking hot 30+ year old woman and a 15 year old boy was compromised. Would it be considered the same in our society? I would argue there should be NO difference but it would not be the same today now would it?. A sexual predator is a sexual predator no matter the gender.

That said, when I was 15 if given the chance I might have had a different idea.......times are changing and society is also. This is a good thing, This arsehole will get what is coming to him. The sad part is the girl and the soon to be ex-wife. How can they recover? The girl can not, and this crapbite took that from her and it will be with her for a very long time.

 

[mongo404]

I would say if this is true we need not give this guy a second thought. Except a .22lr!!! There Is NO excuse for this type of behavior.

 

[jwfuhrman]

I agree it is way over used. A 18 year old guy that has a 16 year old girl friend can still go to prison and get that label of sex offender. Many moons ago, my ex fiancee was 15 and I was 17 when we started dating. When she was 17, guess what it was still illegal. Granted we broke it off when we were both well beyond the legal age of 18.

What I'm getting at is the age of the "bad guy" needs to be considered. More than 10 years difference, and he's got the law's full wrath to deal with. 40 doing a 14/15 year old is not just illegal, it's down right ****ing disgusting, even if the girl was consenting.

In this day and age, by the time kids are 12, they know exactly what is going on, it doesn't make it right, but the lines of oh that poor 15 year old girl just didn't understand what was going on when she consented is a line of crap. I know quite a few people in my age group that had sex the first time when they were still in middle school, some had multiple partners by freshmen year....

agree
Even back then, I don't think it was normal for the <18 girls to be involved w/ a 40+ yr old (who is MARRIED). In fact, I think the adultery and age difference would have even been less acceptable than today. So to say some portion of this is acceptable because it "used" to be ok is just a loony argument. I agree that sometimes the statutory rape thing is applied too often; eg to an 18-20 yr old w/ a <18 yr old consensual partner, especially those who have been together a long time (and especially in this day of registration, internet tracking, etc), but this is a far cry from that situation. These are legit charges, imo.

Money and Power have been used throughout history for old farts to get access to teenage queens, but I don't buy it was ever normal or acceptable. It sure the hell isn't now.

again, my

-rvb

 

[Zoub]

I don't get the "preying on the weak" vibe from this story. I get the "idiot that couldn't keep it in his pants and threw away a life that most gun nuts would lose a leg to have" vibe.

Let me explain it, first drop the word weak, replace it with the word vulnerable. Preying on the vulnerable.

My daughter is very intelligent and from about age 9 I taught her how that could be a weakness. Intelligence does not equate to street smarts. An intelligent child is no match for a motivated, focused, savy, street smart adult. The smart kids think they have it under control but they don't know squat. They don't know or understand evil.

An adult with half the IQ can and will outsmart an intelligent child.

The other issue is adults tend to treat children who look like adults as adults. They are not adults. Along with that, parents of these kids often give them too long a leash and way too much freedom to make their own decsions. Hence why they look like an adult in the first place.

Then along comes the molester.

 

[Zoub]

Rationalization is powerful.

Best post in this whole thread.

Just as powerful is Visualization.

I am trying to visualize a conversation with my Teen daughter in which she would be rationalizing to me a relationship with an adult molester. Instead, what I keep visualizing is my face to face conversation with the molester.


This guy was was enamored with Hollywood. I will bet $5 the proof will be pictures and videos.