One LARGE order of S-HOLE coming right up!

[jamil]

Generally, if a person Indicates that they are Irish-American, is that reference to heritage, or simply the place they were born?

See? That wasn't so hard was it?

I'd say it's most often identifying a heritage, though most of what I posted about in terms of using it legally, on forms. But okay, let's talk about in terms of heritage.

Something like Irish-American is generally not used to identify race, as much as heritage and culture. When Blacks use "African-American" it is much more about racial identity. A Black family which grew up generations in Italy, migrating to the US could prefer to identify with "Italian-American", much easier than the reciprocal, a White family in Africa identifying as African-American. You've said as much. In the one case, it's just a term indicating where their culture and heritage came from without as much regard to race. In the case of African-Americans, that is socially reserved for the race, irrespective of culture or heritage. So obviously the two aren't really playing by the same rules.

So a question for you. The culture of people who tend to identify as African-Americans, how much of that culture is actually African culture? How much of it evolved from slaves which developed their own unique culture along with adapting some cultural features from Southern Americans? What similarities in culture do Black Americans share with Africans? And, since "African" isn't anything close to homogeneous. Which Africa? Muslim? Christian? Tribal? Westernized?

I kinda suspect that "African-American" is a label which derives "Africa" from their ancestral origin, but their culture isn't as African as it is unique to American Blacks. And if that's true, what is wrong with saying so?

I think the term attempts to find an identity that Black people can be proud of, that makes Black Americans distinct from other cultures associated with Whites. And there's nothing wrong that. Nothing wrong with holding the familial cultural traditions. It's the race part that gives me pause. It just makes the "African" part of the label, maybe not the best fit. The people who identify as, say, Irish-Americans aren't in the same boat, because they'll likely drop that hyphenation after living here a few generations. But the extent to which race is a part of the identity of African-Americans, that identity term just doesn't fade away over generations.

 

[Trigger Time]

I like this

 

[jamil]

So what you are saying is that some don't like when I ask questions that make you think? And when I say "think" most of the time, it's trying to find a way to answer a question without admitting something that supports my premise.

No. It's not that I don't like questions that make people think. It's that often it seems your questions are loaded. So instead of trying to decide your angle, I just play the question straight, according to what you asked rather than what you meant to ask.

I think a straightforward conversation is a more productive conversation than two people going post for post trying to get the other person to just say what they're saying.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

See? That wasn't so hard was it?

I'd say it's most often identifying a heritage, though most of what I posted about in terms of using it legally, on forms. But okay, let's talk about in terms of heritage.

Something like Irish-American is generally not used to identify race, as much as heritage and culture. When Blacks use "African-American" it is much more about racial identity. A Black family which grew up generations in Italy, migrating to the US could prefer to identify with "Italian-American", much easier than the reciprocal, a White family in Africa identifying as African-American. You've said as much. In the one case, it's just a term indicating where their culture and heritage came from without as much regard to race. In the case of African-Americans, that is socially reserved for the race, irrespective of culture or heritage. So obviously the two aren't really playing by the same rules.

So a question for you. The culture of people who tend to identify as African-Americans, how much of that culture is actually African culture? How much of it evolved from slaves which developed their own unique culture along with adapting some cultural features from Southern Americans? What similarities in culture do Black Americans share with Africans? And, since "African" isn't anything close to homogeneous. Which Africa? Muslim? Christian? Tribal? Westernized?

I kinda suspect that "African-American" is a label which derives "Africa" from their ancestral origin, but their culture isn't as African as it is unique to American Blacks. And if that's true, what is wrong with saying so?

I think the term attempts to find an identity that Black people can be proud of, that makes Black Americans distinct from other cultures associated with Whites. And there's nothing wrong that. Nothing wrong with holding the familial cultural traditions. It's the race part that gives me pause. It just makes the "African" part of the label, maybe not the best fit. The people who identify as, say, Irish-Americans aren't in the same boat, because they'll likely drop that hyphenation after living here a few generations. But the extent to which race is a part of the identity of African-Americans, that identity term just doesn't fade away over generations.

This reminds me of part of one of Eddie Murphy's act, when he went of Africa.

 

[Dead Duck]

[video=youtube_share;z8wrqe72YG4]https://youtu.be/z8wrqe72YG4[/video]

 

[Timjoebillybob]

I have rarely known you to ask a straightforward question, to be fair. I'm forever trying to sort through the context of the discussion to figure out exactly what your question is asking.

I don't mean that as a criticism, but just to beg a little patience when you think people are avoiding your questions.

IMO, Kut asks questions not to get a straightforward answer. He does it to elicit the response he wants. For example I'll reference the question he asked below.

Thousands Sign Petition Asking Trump to Let White Farmers in South Africa Migrate to U.S. After Country Votes to Force Them Off Land

Interesting. I wonder if it's Trump conservatives or liberals that are the ones signing this petition.

Why don't you simply state what IMO you are assuming? Which is that those who signed the petition are racist white folk who don't mind other white folk from immigrating but shun any with darker skin. I didn't sign it, but I'll ask a few questions. Are they able to be properly vetted, or are they from a war torn and/or ****hole country where the records are nonexistent or unavailable? Are they used to a modern infrastructure and willing to use it, or are they used to dropping trou and crapping in the street, and/or shanties built over whatever water is available? Are they bringing a needed skill and/or money to invest, or are they simply able to provide basic manual labor and not contribute to the US? I could go on, but I'm sure you get my point. Which do you think I support immigrating to the US regardless of the color of their skin?

Is Asian-American an absurd label?

Neverminding the fact that the student in question might not even have been American in the first place.

Yep about as absurd as European-American, or African-American.

They're not used under race. I've filled out a number of forms in my life and I don't think I ever recall "Italian-American" under Race. Under race you might typically see: White and/or Caucasian, African-American and/or Black, Native American, Hispanic.

Hispanic isn't even a race. But I see it there quite often under race.

Something that needs to be clear. Saying African-American isn't a race isn't intended to be disparaging to anyone who identifies as that. Identities are different from race, though race, especially minority races within a larger ethnic group, is often closely related to [STRIKE]race[/STRIKE] identity.

ETA: meant to say identity, not race.

Actually Native American isn't a race either, there are 3 recognized races although some argue that there should be a fourth. Those 3 are Caucasoid, Negroid, and Mongoloid. The 4th proposed race isaustraloid.

 

[Kutnupe14]

See? That wasn't so hard was it?

I'd say it's most often identifying a heritage, though most of what I posted about in terms of using it legally, on forms. But okay, let's talk about in terms of heritage.

Something like Irish-American is generally not used to identify race, as much as heritage and culture. When Blacks use "African-American" it is much more about racial identity. A Black family which grew up generations in Italy, migrating to the US could prefer to identify with "Italian-American", much easier than the reciprocal, a White family in Africa identifying as African-American. You've said as much. In the one case, it's just a term indicating where their culture and heritage came from without as much regard to race. In the case of African-Americans, that is socially reserved for the race, irrespective of culture or heritage. So obviously the two aren't really playing by the same rules.

So a question for you. The culture of people who tend to identify as African-Americans, how much of that culture is actually African culture? How much of it evolved from slaves which developed their own unique culture along with adapting some cultural features from Southern Americans? What similarities in culture do Black Americans share with Africans? And, since "African" isn't anything close to homogeneous. Which Africa? Muslim? Christian? Tribal? Westernized?

I kinda suspect that "African-American" is a label which derives "Africa" from their ancestral origin, but their culture isn't as African as it is unique to American Blacks. And if that's true, what is wrong with saying so?

I think the term attempts to find an identity that Black people can be proud of, that makes Black Americans distinct from other cultures associated with Whites. And there's nothing wrong that. Nothing wrong with holding the familial cultural traditions. It's the race part that gives me pause. It just makes the "African" part of the label, maybe not the best fit. The people who identify as, say, Irish-Americans aren't in the same boat, because they'll likely drop that hyphenation after living here a few generations. But the extent to which race is a part of the identity of African-Americans, that identity term just doesn't fade away over generations.

You're trying to craft an ideal world, that simply doesn't exist. Perhaps you won't admit it, but when people refer to someone as "Irish-American," the listener immediately assumes the person the white. It's not even a second thought to be considered, it is simply understood. The status quo. The idea of identifying by "look" is so ingrained, that the "Black Irish," actually was created for white people who don't "look" Irish, despite sharing the same culture and heritage. The racial identity of the majority is most often assigned to all, and when it different, then it is often clarified.

There are only a small smatterings of African culture in Black American culture. Most of it has been intentionally stripped away. Black culture in the United States, being the oldest homegrown US American culture since the founding, draws almost exclusively from lives and experiences in the United States.

The race part shouldn't give you pause. In America, black people didn't create it, white people did. They're the ones who who held an obsession with race until the 1970s. Everyone was placed in nice little boxes, told were they could go, and what they could do. Now people want to complain about the boxes? Is this some sort of White Guilt thing? Are people so ashamed of 200+ years of institutionalized racism that this is some attempt to destroy all vestiges of racial identification? That's interesting, I never considered that White Guilt may be the driving force behind the backlash against racial labels. Personally, for those who don't have the need to feel guilty, and seeing it not affecting you, don't worry about it.

 

[Timjoebillybob]

This appears to be avoiding a fairly straitforward question. Perhaps I should ask what do people mean when they refer to themselves as "Anglo." Is that better?

Generally white, English speaking, non hispanic Americans. About the same as when someone refers to themselves as hispanic.

Generally, if a person Indicates that they are Irish-American, is that reference to heritage, or simply the place they were born?

A bit of both, but generally the heritage that has been passed down from those who were born there. Whether that be using your hands while talking, men wearing skirts, eating food that most likely came from a dare, wearing wooden shoes, etc.

As have I, that's why I stated "generally." I'm interested to see how many people say they're referencing the place they were born, vs identifying with history and customs of a place they've (most likely) never even set foot in.

What history and customs of Africa do most that identify African-American identifying with?

All of those fall under the umbrella of "safely" do they not? None contradict the other, and there's a general understanding. So all are acceptable answers. So do you want to take a crack at answering the question I posed earlier?

Actually, not necessarily. Is driving the speedlimit in the middle lane on I-65 during rush hour driving lawfully? Is it driving safely.

 

[Dead Duck]

You're trying to craft an ideal world, that simply doesn't exist. Perhaps you won't admit it, but when people refer to someone as "Irish-American," the listener immediately assumes the person the white. It's not even a second thought to be considered, it is simply understood. The status quo. The idea of identifying by "look" is so ingrained, that the "Black Irish," actually was created for white people who don't "look" Irish, despite sharing the same culture and heritage. The racial identity of the majority is most often assigned to all, and when it different, then it is often clarified.

There are only a small smatterings of African culture in Black American culture. Most of it has been intentionally stripped away. Black culture in the United States, being the oldest homegrown US American culture since the founding, draws almost exclusively from lives and experiences in the United States.

The race part shouldn't give you pause. In America, black people didn't create it, white people did. They're the ones who who held an obsession with race until the 1970s. Everyone was placed in nice little boxes, told were they could go, and what they could do. Now people want to complain about the boxes? Is this some sort of White Guilt thing? Are people so ashamed of 200+ years of institutionalized racism that this is some attempt to destroy all vestiges of racial identification? That's interesting, I never considered that White Guilt may be the driving force behind the backlash against racial labels. Personally, for those who don't have the need to feel guilty, and seeing it not affecting you, don't worry about it.

I'm still trying picture a "Natural" Black RedHead.

 

[Kutnupe14]

Why don't you simply state what IMO you are assuming? Which is that those who signed the petition are racist white folk who don't mind other white folk from immigrating but shun any with darker skin. I didn't sign it, but I'll ask a few questions. Are they able to be properly vetted, or are they from a war torn and/or ****hole country where the records are nonexistent or unavailable? Are they used to a modern infrastructure and willing to use it, or are they used to dropping trou and crapping in the street, and/or shanties built over whatever water is available? Are they bringing a needed skill and/or money to invest, or are they simply able to provide basic manual labor and not contribute to the US? I could go on, but I'm sure you get my point. Which do you think I support immigrating to the US regardless of the color of their skin?

It's so obvious, I didn't think it needed to be said.
As to your questions, bringing "farmers" into the United States, as refugees, is a non-starter. If they have some skills that are beneficial, and want to get in line, sure, have at it. No sped up visa, they wait in line like everyone else... as an individual. If the "farmer" wants to bring along his wife, his grandma, his teenage kids too? That's another non-starter. Or do you think that the farmer plans to leave SA without his family? I mean surely you didn't expect that he would want to bring along other folks with him. Right?

 

[Kutnupe14]

I'm still trying picture a "Natural" Black RedHead.

Malcom X was one actually.

 

[churchmouse]

Malcom X was one actually.

His Nick-Name was red was it not.

 

[Dead Duck]

Malcom X was one actually.

Ah-
Well that explains his "Irish" temper.

 

[Woobie]

The race part shouldn't give you pause. In America, black people didn't create it, white people did. They're the ones who who held an obsession with race until the 1970s. Everyone was placed in nice little boxes, told were they could go, and what they could do. Now people want to complain about the boxes? Is this some sort of White Guilt thing? Are people so ashamed of 200+ years of institutionalized racism that this is some attempt to destroy all vestiges of racial identification? That's interesting, I never considered that White Guilt may be the driving force behind the backlash against racial labels. Personally, for those who don't have the need to feel guilty, and seeing it not affecting you, don't worry about it.

I almost lol'd, but then I got sad for you. This might fit somebody out there, but you're so far out in left field on this. Is it White Guilt to decide for myself what to think, instead of deferring to something set down by someone in the past whom I perceive as bigoted? Is it White Guilt that makes me decide that the labels our ever-efficient government uses on standardized forms might not be all that accurate? Nah, I'm probably just a poor slob wallowing in my sorrow over spilled milk.

 

[Kutnupe14]

His Nick-Name was red was it not.

Yep

 

[Kutnupe14]

I almost lol'd, but then I got sad for you. This might fit somebody out there, but you're so far out in left field on this. Is it White Guilt to decide for myself what to think, instead of deferring to something set down by someone in the past whom I perceive as bigoted? Is it White Guilt that makes me decide that the labels our ever-efficient government uses on standardized forms might not be all that accurate? Nah, I'm probably just a poor slob wallowing in my sorrow over spilled milk.

Don't feel sad for me, I gots no feelings of guilt. I don't know what you perceived as bigoted. But I've seen enough bigoted comments met with silence to know that people only seem to care depending on who's saying it.

 

[BugI02]

Thin Lizzy. Never heard any band member described as anything other than "Irish" nor describe themselves elsewise

View attachment 64608

 

[jamil]

Actually Native American isn't a race either, there are 3 recognized races although some argue that there should be a fourth. Those 3 are Caucasoid, Negroid, and Mongoloid. The 4th proposed race isaustraloid.

I know. I'm just saying what I see on boxes for people to check.

 

[Woobie]

Don't feel sad for me, I gots no feelings of guilt. I don't know what you perceived as bigoted. But I've seen enough bigoted comments met with silence to know that people only seem to care depending on who's saying it.

When you generalize with "people only seem to care depending on who's saying it", does that mean all people? Or is there a subset of people you have in mind?

 

[churchmouse]

I know. I'm just saying what I see on boxes for people to check.

I admit to needing google on #4.