One LARGE order of S-HOLE coming right up!

[Kutnupe14]

When you generalize with "people only seem to care depending on who's saying it", does that mean all people? Or is there a subset of people you have in mind?

It's true of all people, but in the context of this conversation, I was speaking of bigoted comments that appear on INGO. Do you disagree?

 

[jamil]

You're trying to craft an ideal world, that simply doesn't exist. Perhaps you won't admit it, but when people refer to someone as "Irish-American," the listener immediately assumes the person the white. It's not even a second thought to be considered, it is simply understood. The status quo. The idea of identifying by "look" is so ingrained, that the "Black Irish," actually was created for white people who don't "look" Irish, despite sharing the same culture and heritage. The racial identity of the majority is most often assigned to all, and when it different, then it is often clarified.

There are only a small smatterings of African culture in Black American culture. Most of it has been intentionally stripped away. Black culture in the United States, being the oldest homegrown US American culture since the founding, draws almost exclusively from lives and experiences in the United States.

I'm not trying to craft any world, I'm trying to describe the one I see. Of course "white" is inferred when one identifies as "Irish-American". To your point, I think it's safe to say that it would be at least a little more socially acceptable in the US for a Black family from Ireland to migrate to the US and prefer to be identified as "Irish-American" than the reciprocal white family from Africa. That was the point. The on the rest we're in agreement.

The race part shouldn't give you pause. In America, black people didn't create it, white people did. They're the ones who who held an obsession with race until the 1970s. Everyone was placed in nice little boxes, told were they could go, and what they could do. Now people want to complain about the boxes? Is this some sort of White Guilt thing? Are people so ashamed of 200+ years of institutionalized racism that this is some attempt to destroy all vestiges of racial identification? That's interesting, I never considered that White Guilt may be the driving force behind the backlash against racial labels. Personally, for those who don't have the need to feel guilty, and seeing it not affecting you, don't worry about it.

No one should ever have been placed in nice little boxes, told where they could go, and what they could do. It's taken time for people to socially evolve past that. And it's time to say the boxes are no longer necessary. And white people didn't I understand that. But white people have mostly evolved past that, and now, it seems the loudest voices we're hearing is from Black people who say some pretty racist things, such as assigning class guilt to white people. That's absurd.

About your point, white people didn't urge Black people to start calling themselves African Americans. Jesse Jackson did that. And I don't blame people for how they react having been treated the way they were since the days of slavery. But, I guess it depends what Black people want from White people. If it's full integration into the broader culture--by that I mean we, both sides, stop caring so much about race--that necessarily means both sides give up their racial preferences. Not necessarily culture, but the distinctions as it pertains just to race. So would attitudes necessary to bring that outcome about be compatible with a Hyphenated label? As Irish-Americans assimilate and care less about being "Irish-American" they care less about their Irish identity and care more about their American identity. And I understand it's easier for them to do that because they're white. They don't have the racial component to overcome as well.

 

[jamil]

I almost lol'd, but then I got sad for you. This might fit somebody out there, but you're so far out in left field on this. Is it White Guilt to decide for myself what to think, instead of deferring to something set down by someone in the past whom I perceive as bigoted? Is it White Guilt that makes me decide that the labels our ever-efficient government uses on standardized forms might not be all that accurate? Nah, I'm probably just a poor slob wallowing in my sorrow over spilled milk.

White guilt has nothing to do with it. There's no such thing as assigning class guilt to all individuals in the group. That's nonsense and it's the epitome of racism.

I think you're right though. I think the world views are so far apart each side projects the interpretations of their own group on the other. To Kut, it seems impossible for him to conceive that it could be that I see a clinging to racial identity as not all that productive for solving interracial issues.

I don't know how many times I have to say it. I think the reason racism exists is that we care too much about race. WTF is race anyway? I read years ago that the difference in DNA between races is not a lot more than the difference between the DNA of people with and without freckles. That tells me, that race alone is mostly, functionally meaningless. The importance we attribute to it is socially derived. Okay then. If we know that, let's stop caring so much more about race than we do about freckles. The cultural parts are fine. But the cultures should no longer be so bound to race. That means white people get to be from Africa. And that means black people get to be from Ireland. And we shouldn't give the ****s that we do about that.

 

[jamil]

When you generalize with "people only seem to care depending on who's saying it", does that mean all people? Or is there a subset of people you have in mind?

Everyone must be sufficiently disavowing of every social justice cause, or you're every bit as guilty of the thing you didn't disavow. That's the brave new world carved out by social justice.

 

[jamil]

It's true of all people, but in the context of this conversation, I was speaking of bigoted comments that appear on INGO. Do you disagree?

I often opine on your posts when I think there is some depth there to explore why I might agree or, usually, disagree. I've seen some stuff on INGO that I generally don't comment on. That doesn't mean I agree with them. Don't take people not commenting as tacit approval. It may be that it doesn't strike everyone as worthy of commenting on. It's silly to require everyone to sufficiently disavow everyone who says questionable things. The way you tell if someone is a racist is they, themselves, say things that are actually racist. Guilt by non-disavowal is an inaccurate way to indict people. It's a very "group-think" way to conduct one's opinion of others.

 

[Kutnupe14]

I'm not trying to craft any world, I'm trying to describe the one I see. Of course "white" is inferred when one identifies as "Irish-American". To your point, I think it's safe to say that it would be at least a little more socially acceptable in the US for a Black family from Ireland to migrate to the US and prefer to be identified as "Irish-American" than the reciprocal white family from Africa. That was the point. The on the rest we're in agreement.

No one should ever have been placed in nice little boxes, told where they could go, and what they could do. It's taken time for people to socially evolve past that. And it's time to say the boxes are no longer necessary. And white people didn't I understand that. But white people have mostly evolved past that, and now, it seems the loudest voices we're hearing is from Black people who say some pretty racist things, such as assigning class guilt to white people. That's absurd.

About your point, white people didn't urge Black people to start calling themselves African Americans. Jesse Jackson did that. And I don't blame people for how they react having been treated the way they were since the days of slavery. But, I guess it depends what Black people want from White people. If it's full integration into the broader culture--by that I mean we, both sides, stop caring so much about race--that necessarily means both sides give up their racial preferences. Not necessarily culture, but the distinctions as it pertains just to race. So would attitudes necessary to bring that outcome about be compatible with a Hyphenated label? As Irish-Americans assimilate and care less about being "Irish-American" they care less about their Irish identity and care more about their American identity. And I understand it's easier for them to do that because they're white. They don't have the racial component to overcome as well.

Here's where the story goes off the rails. Black Americans or African-Americans means refers to black Americans, period. Those of us that are descendent of slaves, have no national origin that we can be cite, as a displaced peoples, other than an acknowledgement of the place our ancestors originated from.

Africans that moved here from Africa do not have that issue, they don't refer to themselves as "African-Americans," because they are Sudanese-American, Somali-American, Kenyan-American. There's absolutely no need for them to need a more encompassing umbrella for identification. Just as Irish-Americans, Italian-Americans, or Polish-Americans have no need to refer to themselves as European-Americans. With that line of thought, a South African, would be a South African-American. To come here and claim to simply be an "African-American" when one can be more specific concerning national origin, is disingenuous. Why stop at African-American, if someone wants to push the bounds? Why not Southern Hemisphere-American or Planet Earth-American? Why attempt to make a mockery of people who have a lost history, and refer to themselves in the most specific way that they are able?

Your issue is that African-American has a racial component to it. Ok, so let me get this straight. You have a problem with group of people that are the descendants of American slaves because the name they "identify" with, "African-American" is also used a racial designation? How could it possibly not be a racial designation? Would it be better, if instead of "African-America," we used "Slave Descendent Americans?" Please, tell me how that doesn't carry a racial designation, for people held in bondage in the United States? Afro-American... how about that one? No... Afros traditionally tend to have a racial component too. Hmmm... how about simply Black-American, that way we can lumped in with Sudanese, Somali, and Kenyan-Americans. Nevermind the fact that they will probably be certain to clarify exactly who they are and their particular heritage.

You're absolutely right, people shouldn't be placed in boxes.... so I guess they also shouldn't be proud of their respective heritages. We're all American after all, right? So let's boycott the all these hyphenated-American events that bring us all this foreign culture-ish stuff. Makes sense, right?

 

[Kutnupe14]

I often opine on your posts when I think there is some depth there to explore why I might agree or, usually, disagree. I've seen some stuff on INGO that I generally don't comment on. That doesn't mean I agree with them. Don't take people not commenting as tacit approval. It may be that it doesn't strike everyone as worthy of commenting on. It's silly to require everyone to sufficiently disavow everyone who says questionable things. The way you tell if someone is a racist is they, themselves, say things that are actually racist. Guilt by non-disavowal is an inaccurate way to indict people. It's a very "group-think" way to conduct one's opinion of others.

I don't... but I'm conscious enough to know that it's not an indication of disapproval either.

 

[Tombs]

Wait, I thought we against letting people in as refugees? Has that changed today?

If they share a similar culture, why not let them in?

It's when they have a very different culture that makes them unlikely to integrate, and instead form social enclaves, that causes refugees to be problematic and a drain on resources.

 

[Kutnupe14]

If they share a similar culture, why not let them in?

It's when they have a very different culture that makes them unlikely to integrate, and instead form social enclaves, that causes refugees to be problematic and a drain on resources.

I doubt seriously South African farmers have a similar culture.

 

[bobzilla]

It's true of all people, but in the context of this conversation, I was speaking of bigoted comments that appear on INGO. Do you disagree?

Your opinion of “bigoted” or society because the two are often not even close.

 

[Kutnupe14]

Your opinion of “bigoted” or society because the two are often not even close.

Actually I think my opinion, concerning this, reconciles with completely with society. Honestly, Bob (noting we've turned over a new leaf), you don't think that society cares more about "who" says something, rather than what's being said?

 

[indyartisan]

Veteran of Boer War, WW1 and WW2 was wounded 9 times, and bit off his own fingers when a doctor wouldn?t amputate them | Abroad in the Yard
One tough SOB.
The Boers were our allies through the two world wars, the conflicts in Korea and Vietnam, proxy wars with Russian supported Cubans in Africa.
Lets turn our backs on them, feed them to the communists. It wont be the first time in our history that we have done so.

 

[Woobie]

It's true of all people, but in the context of this conversation, I was speaking of bigoted comments that appear on INGO. Do you disagree?

That bigoted comments have occurred on INGO? We've all seen them. So..... Since I am a member here, and bigoted comments have been made here, then I am bigoted. Is that the leap of logic you want me to make? Otherwise, why is INGO important? Bigots are part of any cross sectional slice you take out of society.

If you're wondering why some comments go unchallenged, that could be for all sorts of reasons. Do you have specific examples you would be willing to share? I'm sure you have a whole spreadsheet built.

 

[churchmouse]

I doubt seriously South African farmers have a similar culture.

Kut I seem to sense you dislike those people.

I am not sure about the farmers but the people I have met from SA were pretty stellar.

I have no real opinion on what to do here. I am sure this is far deeper than what we know.


I also know it was inevitable.

 

[Tombs]

I doubt seriously South African farmers have a similar culture.

I'm guessing you don't know many.

I happen to know quite a lot of them. You'd have a hard time telling them apart from anyone else in the US.

Deeply religious and conservative, hard working, same values. They carry a relatively similar history to our's. Maybe they don't have the right skin color for you to accept them.

 

[Kutnupe14]

I'm guessing you don't know many.

I happen to know quite a lot of them. You'd have a hard time telling them apart from anyone else in the US.

Deeply religious and conservative, hard working, same values. They carry a relatively similar history to our's. Maybe they don't have the right skin color for you to accept them.

You know "quite a lot" of South African farmers? Call me skeptical. As far as the similarities, seems that would be quite a few followers of Islam that could make claim to the traits you listed.

 

[Kutnupe14]

Kut I seem to sense you dislike those people.

I am not sure about the farmers but the people I have met from SA were pretty stellar.

I have no real opinion on what to do here. I am sure this is far deeper than what we know.


I also know it was inevitable.

Dislike? No not at all. I simply want them held to the exact same standard that other potential immigrants are. They don't get a pass because they are having a rough time in their home nation.

 

[Tombs]

You know "quite a lot" of South African farmers? Call me skeptical. As far as the similarities, seems that would be quite a few followers of Islam that could make claim to the traits you listed.

I'm sure kut, I'm sure.

Because christians and muslims are the same, right? You know europeans and middle easterners have exactly the same culture and heritage.

I can't tell if you're being serious or joking half of the time.

Dislike? No not at all. I simply want them held to the

exact same standard that other potential immigrants are. They don't get a pass because they are having a rough time in their home nation.

Immigrants should be accepted based on what their compatibility with our country, our values, and our culture is. If integration seems like a pipe dream, and can be observed elsewhere in the world as being a difficult or impossible process, then I don't believe it's in our interests to accept someone.

 

[churchmouse]

Dislike? No not at all. I simply want them held to the exact same standard that other potential immigrants are. They don't get a pass because they are having a rough time in their home nation.

Agreed. Totally.

 

[Kutnupe14]

That bigoted comments have occurred on INGO? We've all seen them. So..... Since I am a member here, and bigoted comments have been made here, then I am bigoted. Is that the leap of logic you want me to make? Otherwise, why is INGO important? Bigots are part of any cross sectional slice you take out of society.

If you're wondering why some comments go unchallenged, that could be for all sorts of reasons. Do you have specific examples you would be willing to share? I'm sure you have a whole spreadsheet built.

Nope. Why would you care now, if you didn't care then?