October ACC USPSA Match 10/24

[Skroggster]

Winning is the fun.

To see the second sight picture you have to be looking for it first, and many people (I can name some) are not even looking for it. (I being one of those, I continue to make the rookie mistakes, pulling off too soon for the next target.) You proved that to me on Saturday!

Fill us in on Ron Paul!

 

[rvb]

Ok Ill really get it stirred up!! I think that you can call a bad shot with out seeing your front site just from the feel. You guys say you call every shot is that also from using your hands and gun as a sighting device? Cause we all know that we shoot some targets close up without even seeing sights front or rear. Do ya get where I'm going here? So how can you see your front sight rise to call a shot? This is one reason for my saying you cant or dont call every shot. I know apple to oranges right?

see what you need to see.
can you call a shot off that big blob of gun and fists? sure. I won't argue that... the A zone is frickin huge up close.

and "being aware of" the sights need not be the same as "looking for" the sights. Calling is just being aware of the sights, it is not aiming the gun. There is no need to wait on a sight picture in close high speed shooting. All we need is to be aware of where the sights (or even the silhouette of the gun) are. It's all about the difficulty of the shot. Extremely easy close arrays you can get away with just a vague awareness of the sights or gun, and still call the shot.

"Feel" = "hope," IMO. I think what most call "feel" is really people not consciously realizing just how much their vision is aware of. (or if it really is feel, they are wondering how they missed that wide-open target 1 yd away).

-rvb

 

[rvb]

ok, so i may be a little out of my league here since i 'call' maybe the majority of my first shots but none of my second shots....

Try this at your next match... there are no first shots or second shots, just shots.

they also know they arent jerking or pushing the gun which makes it easy for them to call the shot.

Yes, a FS that is not twitchin around as the sear breaks is easier to call. This is why I always say you have to be able to shoot accurately slow before you can shoot accurately fast. Take that trigger control out of question and have confidence that where you saw the sight lift from is where the hole will be.

i do think its possible and a must to call your shots at a certain level.

"shot calling, accuracy, and consistency" are what some very talented shooters used to harp on me about. Lately #3 has been my nemesis.

-rvb

 

[mongo404]

"Feel" = "hope," IMO. I think what most call "feel" is really people not consciously realizing just how much their vision is aware of. (or if it really is feel, they are wondering how they missed that wide-open target 1 yd away).

Right There is what I was looking for. All BS aside What it boils down to I really believe is that either you are born with the talent or you have to put the time in practice and alot of it. I know that repitition will help solve alot of issues with your sights and sight picture. The more I shot this year the better I got so I was not born with it but I am doing my best to get the practice in. Hence the subconscious taking over. Just dont know how much longer I can afford to feed 2 guns if you know what I mean. Cause that boy can put alot of rounds down range real quick. Dont get me wrong he dont waste them he just wants to practice alot of different things. So I try to back him down to 2 or 3 in one session. Thanks for chiming in guys practice practice practice. One other question whats your favorite drill for helping with this subconscious endevor. And no I am not the best speller. One other question what are you refering to when you say consistency?

 

[rvb]

If you go and watch the pro's shoot you will see this as well. They don't pull the trigger any faster than most of us, they do everything else faster,

Much truth here. In fact, most top shooters SHOOT SLOWER than the rest of the field, especially on those mid-far or partial targets. They aren't concerned about splits, just points. It took me a long time to accept the truth that most top shooters weren't going any faster than 0.20 on the majority of their shots.

The difference in doing this slow or fast is all mental. If you are thinking of anything else like, where am I, when do I reload, where is that target, oh sh*t, did I just run past those, does my a$$ look fat, is the iron on, then you cannot be focusing your attention on watching your front sights lift.

The stage has to be programmed in, when the buzzer goes off everything you do is subconsciously, auto pilot. The only thing consciously you are doing is focusing on your front sight and seeing your sights lift on each shot.

YES! the conscious mind doesn't multi-task well.
And if your mind is focused on all that other crap, that's when the worst thought of all enters your mind.... hurry Hurry HURRY HURRY HURRY!

-rvb

 

[mongo404]

does my a$$ look fat

What are you trying to say
Did you see the video Bart posted of me?

 

[rvb]

Right There is what I was looking for. All BS aside What it boils down to I really believe is that either you are born with the talent or you have to put the time in practice and alot of it. I know that repitition will help solve alot of issues with your sights and sight picture. The more I shot this year the better I got so I was not born with it but I am doing my best to get the practice in. Just dont know how much longer I can afford to feed 2 guns if you know what I mean. Cause that boy can put alot of rounds down range real quick. Dont get me wrong he dont waste them he just wants to practice alot of different things. So I try to back him down to 2 or 3 in one session. Thanks for chiming in guys practice practice practice. One other question whats your favorite drill for helping with this subconscious endevor. And no I am not the best speller

Look, I push this stuff because I didn't believe it for the longest time. I'm an engineer. I want it broken down into splits and sequence of events and to be told "how to" step by step. I didn't buy all the "be aware" stuff... I figured I'd have to start smokin the good stuff to understand what Enos was talking about. It wasn't until I experienced it for myself that I GOT IT. For me it wasn't a gradual thing, it was a eureka moment. And this is just the tip of the iceburg. And it took rounds down range. People who are less methodical-type personality may get it quicker (or I'm just slow).

TIMING DRILLS. LOTS and LOTS and LOTS of timing drills, using the highest capacity mags you can for your gun.

Bill drills, from point blank to 50 yds, and vary the round count.

Dump ammo into a berm, sometimes watching the FS, sometimes watching the berm, sometimes the brass or slide or smoke, sometimes not really watching anything at all.

One other question what are you refering to when you say consistency?

performing on every shot on every stage at every match. you can't excel and have "good" stages or matches and "bad" stages or matches. They have to all be good.

-rvb

ps. man, all this talk is really makin me miss the days I had time to burn on the range. Anyone know of a well-lit 24 hr range? I have a desire to make some noise...

 

[mongo404]

Thanks

 

[Skroggster]

What are you trying to say
Did you see the video Bart posted of me?

In case you didn't. I know he is proud of it.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVJnbAjFal8&sns=em]YouTube - Adaptive Consulting and Training - USPSA[/ame]

 

[jakemartens]

Winning is the fun.

To see the second sight picture you have to be looking for it first, and many people (I can name some) are not even looking for it. (I being one of those, I continue to make the rookie mistakes, pulling off too soon for the next target.) You proved that to me on Saturday!

Fill us in on Ron Paul!

It was RuPaul........don't let him kid you

 

[Skroggster]

It was RuPaul........don't let him kid you

 

[gh2]

In my 63 years I've been fortunate to work directly with, unquestionably, the best racing drivers of the era . I've also been lucky enough to work with the best shooters of the era and one's that are competitive, at the highest levels, today.
There are assets all these competitors shared, driving race cars or shooting FAST! These guys are blessed with abilities most of us wish we had. With that being said, I'd like to share some of my personal observations of these people, and some insight they were gracious enough to share with me. Obviously I'm not a Wordsmith, so bare with me as I ramble. I'll also stress that I can't do what they do but I have fun trying!
We'll concentrate on shooting although what I try to project here holds true for any athlete involved in a high speed sport, such as hitting a 100 mph baseball with a small wooden stick, driving a 200 mph plus race car into a blind corner, or shooting our beloved firearm at an array of targets as fast and accurately as possible. I hope not to bore you.
As shooters trying to improve, we're constantly drilled to look at the front sight and to "call our shots". Seems simple, but what exactly is calling a shot? There are shooters here that will reply to my thoughts thinking "that's obvious", but there may be some folks that will learn by what I'm saying. After all, I know I see my front sight on most shots, so why do I miss so much? Well, there is more to watching the sight, and sight picture, than is commonly stated. And, there are better shooters here who are adding to this discussion and are correct in their statements!
Coach was right on when he stated "you have to be looking for it first"! OK, what am I looking for? What we're looking for is to have our front sight properly aligned in the rear sight while at the same time positioned at the exact place on the target we're attempting to hit. Wow! That's hard to do, fast! Well, that's only the first step! To call the shot, you have to do all that and, KNOW that was the case when "the front sight lifted" ! It doesn't count if you confirmed the data when you initiated the shot. It only counts if the visual alignment was correct when the shot broke, i.e. when the sight lifted! Trigger control! That is tough to do and takes the high speed vision, many of us don't posses, and the countless rounds down range that most of us can't do. Sad but true. That being said, no matter our level of expertise, we can improve. It's been said, "The thrill is in the pursuit". If you agree or not, we should be absorbed in the journey as much as the result. Improving is icing on the cake.
There are those who believe, if you honestly call all your shots, you never miss. Well, that is close and I can attest the very top shooters do in fact call all their shots, and rarely miss! That is why they are as good as they are. When Doug Koenig says "I think it was there", what he is saying is "It wasn't there but I hope I'm wrong" !
So, don't just watch your front sight. Watch what the front sight is doing as you initiate, and break the shot. As Coach says," look for it" and you may be surprised at what you can see,,, and do.
RVB. Coach. Jake. ANYONE! I'd like your thoughts on my,,,,,,,,, thoughts!

 

[Coach]

Rp

https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...n_paul_speech_in_bloomington.html#post1400675

My Ron Paul observations. Warning I was using words that I know the meaning to but cannot spell.

George,

Tons of good info there. Sometime we need to sit down and analyze some of that information you have rolling around it there.

I think this sport is missing some things in the instruction and advice department. There is a void to be filled, and it could be because the sport is too young.

 

[gh2]

https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...n_paul_speech_in_bloomington.html#post1400675

My Ron Paul observations. Warning I was using words that I know the meaning to but cannot spell.

George,

Tons of good info there. Sometime we need to sit down and analyze some of that information you have rolling around it there.

I think this sport is missing some things in the instruction and advice department. There is a void to be filled, and it could be because the sport is too young.

Does this mean we have to have a serious conversation? What next ?????

Kidding aside, I'd love the opportunity.

 

[bwframe]

Wow. This thread needs to be in "Tactics and Training."
Thanks for the great analysis guys!

 

[rvb]

If there are any mods on board, it seems a new thread could be split out of this match announcement.

I think this sport is missing some things in the instruction and advice department. There is a void to be filled, and it could be because the sport is too young.

I don't think the length the sport has been around has as much to do with it, and shooting (and even dynamic shooting) has been around longer than most mainstream sports. I think that void exists because of a failure to draw on the lessons other mainstream sports have learned. The last couple years I've been reading some on sports psychology and about other sports like baseball and tennis and golf. I'm not a sports guy, and I think that's been a disadvantage in shooting.

RVB. Coach. Jake. ANYONE! I'd like your thoughts on my,,,,,,,,, thoughts!

excellent, excellent thoughts.
Especially important is your point that just because the sights are aligned when the sear breaks, doesn't mean they are when the sight lifts. It's milliseconds difference, but can make the difference in successfully knowing where the hole will appear.

Well, there is more to watching the sight, and sight picture, than is commonly stated.

ok, you all may make a reservation for me at the funny farm after this post...

great hitters in baseball talk about watching the seams of the ball (coming at them at 100mph!). Same with tennis players. In "The Inner Game of Tennis" the author talks about those seams as a way to occupy your thinking mind so it gets out of the way of the subconscious mind so it can do what it knows how to do. The subconscious draws on your own experience, as well as what we have observed in competitors we admire. Your subconscious knows what to do without you telling it, so we send the conscious mind on a useless errand like "call the shot" so it doesn't distract the subconscious with "does my butt look big on film."

So when we first teach our kids to hit a ball with a bat, we tell them to "keep your eye on the ball." Ok, on a basic level we have to know where the ball is to hit it, but you can only get good at hitting the ball when you stop THINKING about hitting the ball (stance and grip, and timing, etc [sound familiar?]), and just let your body do what it needs to. The FOCUS is on the seams. You are AWARE of the position/trajectory of the ball, the SUBCONSCIOUS allows you to hit the ball with the bat.

In shooting, we replace "keep your eye on the ball" with "watch the front site" or "call the shot" for the more advanced. Since reading some of that material, I'm starting to think of calling the shot (ie watching the site LIFT) as an analogy to watching the seams. There's no real useful information there. But it distracts our mind to let our subconscious work. What is really important is aligning the sights (but only as precisely as the shot requires, no more!!) this is analogous to the trajectory of the ball coming at us. It's what really matters. But we only need only to be aware of it. Only when the sights are in the correct position should we be breaking the shot, and we should let our subconscious do that without our brains getting in the way. The FOCUS is on seeing the sight lift, you are AWARE of the alignment of the sights and their relation to the target, and the SUBCONSCIOUS allows us to break the shot.

We teach newbies to break the shot only when a sight picture looks a certain way. Imagine teaching your kid to only swing the bat when the ball was in a specific relation to where he's standing, and based on a crude picture we drew him? Now Imagine the reverse... teaching to shoot the way we teach to hit a baseball?

I used to do some pistol instruction, both as an NRA instructor and for folks new to practical shooting. I'd love to experiment with some newer training ideas found in regular sports books (regular sports: that kind that only requires ONE ball! haha). But not having time and being new to the area make that hard.

High speed vision? I can't imagine seeing the white seams on a yellow tennis ball coming at me at 100mph. But then, ~5 years ago, I couldn't imagine watching the front sight rise during a gun shot. First, you have to be open to the idea it's possible...

We are calling the shot based on our awareness of sight/target alignment, not so much from our focus on seeing the site lift. All the lift does is provide a time reference for when that alignment mattered....

-rvb

tomorrow evening's topic... controlling recoil with your vision...
what goes up must come down.

 

[rhino]

1. It's all Elfin Magic (like bakin' cookies in a hollow tree)
2. kch moves really fast.
3. Coach and BigCraig move well . . . for big men.
4. I move poorly for any comparison short of Stephen Hawking with a dead battery in his wheelchair.
5. I wish I'd been more attentive to my sight pictures and trigger presses on the classifier. I did okay the rest of the day in that regard, but I just didn't do it then.
6. If you plan to shoot steel on the move, and then you actually manage to hit it while you're stumbling toward it, it's probably not the best idea in the world to just stand there admiring your work when there are more targets to be shot. I'm just sayin'.
7. I didn't fall down. I came close a few times, but managed to stay on my hind paws.
8. Spanning the continuum from the classic "see two sight pictures for every shot" to the "call your shots by seeing the front sight lift" requires (among other things) being able to press the trigger each and every time without significantly altering the alignment of the gun. Simple, but not the easiest thing in the world to do consistently. I suppose this is why rvb reminds us that you have to be able to shoot well slowly before you can shoot well quickly.
9. My gun is reliable. It's filthy, rusty, and reliable.

 

[rvb]

1. My gun is reliable. It's filthy, rusty, and reliable.

rifle?... gun?... one for shootin the other for fun? What are you describing here? wait. don't answer. mods, ban him incase he decides to answer..

-rvb

 

[rhino]

rifle?... gun?... one for shootin the other for fun? What are you describing here? wait. don't answer. mods, ban him incase he decides to answer..

-rvb

Your jealousy is obvious sir! OBVIOUS!

 

[HICKMAN]

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