OC Black Friday Meet and Lunch 11/26/10 Discussion Thread

[OWGEM]

Come up with a fair comparison, then you might have some teeth to your position.

I have a friend who rides her bicycle on one of the busiest streets in town. When I point out that she could very easily be run over she says that she has every right to do so. And she is legally correct. But not wise IMO.

To carry AR's and such on Black Friday in downtown Indy, with the intention of not producing ID's should they be asked by LEO, as some have made clear is their intention, while under the media spotlight, is IMO the exact same, not wise. This is asking to set back the cause not forward it.

I hope all goes well but am really concerned about potential problems.

 

[Joe Williams]

I have a friend who rides her bicycle on one of the busiest streets in town. When I point out that she could very easily be run over she says that she has every right to do so. And she is legally correct. But not wise IMO.

To carry AR's and such on Black Friday in downtown Indy, with the intention of not producing ID's should they be asked by LEO, as some have made clear is their intention, while under the media spotlight, is IMO the exact same, not wise. This is asking to set back the cause not forward it.

I hope all goes well but am really concerned about potential problems.

There is no legal reason for us to be asked to produce ID. If the police choose to illegally harass us for complying with the law, and they have done so in the past, that will be unfortunate, but ignoring government abuse of it's citizens merely encourages more and greater abuse.

This is a lawful, peaceful and harmless means of asserting our rights.

 

[OWGEM]

There is no legal reason for us to be asked to produce ID. If the police choose to illegally harass us for complying with the law, and they have done so in the past, that will be unfortunate, but ignoring government abuse of it's citizens merely encourages more and greater abuse.

This is a lawful, peaceful and harmless means of asserting our rights.

Joe,

You miss my point, it is not a question of legallity, it is a question of what is prudent. Pick your battles wisely.

 

[Joe Williams]

Joe,

You miss my point, it is not a question of legallity, it is a question of what is prudent.

You missed MY point.

I do not feel it is prudent to surrender our freedom to government attack without protest.

 

[OWGEM]

You missed MY point.

I do not feel it is prudent to surrender our freedom to government attack without protest.

Pick your battles wisely Joe. I hope all goes well.

 

[IndyMonkey]

Joe,

You miss my point, it is not a question of legallity, it is a question of what is prudent. Pick your battles wisely.

We have rights as men. Im sorry you dont see that. Where do you draw the line? When the police come to your house, do you let them in to pilfer through your wifes underwear drawer?

These are not gray areas. Stand up strong and demand that we are treated fairly and to the exact letter of the law.

Dont ever forget that we are law abiding citizens of this country and we are what makes this country what it is.

 

[SSGSAD]

I was at pop's today from 11 to 4 telling their customers what kind of people speak for the shop.

I wish, that I would've known, that you were there, my computer, decided, not to work yesterday, and I couldn't catch up until this morning. I would have come over, and said hi, I work right next door... O'reillys, or you could have stopped in and said hi...
When ATFC, was handcuffed, my first thought was, maybe, we should strap on our single action whatever, and grab our lever action whatever, and walk around Monument Circle, or the Market... Then Mike says we are Cowboys.... is that funny or what ?????

 

[revance]

Come up with a fair comparison, then you might have some teeth to your position.

Alright, here you go...

Sticking with abortion:

It would be perfectly legal to peacefully demonstrate against abortion by standing on the side walk in front of an elementary school holding up pictures of late term aborted fetuses. However I would be against that because I don't believe that would provide a single ounce of sympathy for the cause. In fact, I think it would make all pro-life people look bad and make people angry with us. Does that mean I feel less strongly about the issue than people who want to do that?

I am trying to not pick sides on this but merely point out that you shouldn't say that people who disagree with your tactics are anti 2nd Amendment.

 

[dom1104]

We have rights as men. Im sorry you dont see that. Where do you draw the line? When the police come to your house, do you let them in to pilfer through your wifes underwear drawer?

These are not gray areas. Stand up strong and demand that we are treated fairly and to the exact letter of the law.

Dont ever forget that we are law abiding citizens of this country and we are what makes this country what it is.

Huh. My wifes underwear drawer has a M&P 9mm w/ a threaded barrel, lasergrips, and 23 round extended mag in it.

Anyone who tries to assault her in the middle of the night will be confronted by a muzzle and some multi-colored B cups hanging off of it.

 

[ATF Consumer]

Alright, here you go...

Sticking with abortion:

It would be perfectly legal to peacefully demonstrate against abortion by standing on the side walk in front of an elementary school holding up pictures of late term aborted fetuses. However I would be against that because I don't believe that would provide a single ounce of sympathy for the cause. In fact, I think it would make all pro-life people look bad and make people angry with us. Does that mean I feel less strongly about the issue than people who want to do that?

I am trying to not pick sides on this but merely point out that you shouldn't say that people who disagree with your tactics are anti 2nd Amendment.

I wouldn't be against that, but I don't think that would be wise either, as most elementary children aren't considering having abortions, so the efforts would not provide any gain for the cause.

I'm not saying anyone that is discouraging our actions are anti...but I do think some are providing unnecessary fear mongering, as we have had these walks downtown before without incident. The only problems we have seen so far downtown is when LEO's overstep the law and harass legally carrying citizens.

 

[OWGEM]

The Scenario...

My friend continues to ride her bicycle on the busy street. She is hit by a car and killed.

You do the Black Friday walk. A LEO approaches and asks for your ID. You refuse on the grounds you have done nothing wrong and there is no legal basis for his request. The LEO get flustered and things go down hill to the point you are disarmed and in cuffs. We all know that it can happen, as it did recently. All the while this is being recorded by the media.

Results...

It is little consolation to my friend and her family that she was within her legal rights to ride on the busy street, she is dead.

It is little consolation to the 2A movement that you were within your legal rights as the media spreads video of a crazy man carrying a long gun in downtown Indy who refused a simple request from a LEO to show his ID and ended up being cuffed.

Yeah you can fight it and should legally win. I'll bet your version of the story will not get near the coverage as the more "news worthy" shots of you being cuffed.

Who wins, the 2A movement or the anti 2A movement?

All I am saying is pick your fights wisely.

 

[Pocketman]

There is no legal reason for us to be asked to produce ID. If the police choose to illegally harass us for complying with the law, and they have done so in the past, that will be unfortunate, but ignoring government abuse of it's citizens merely encourages more and greater abuse.

This is a lawful, peaceful and harmless means of asserting our rights.

Joe, you have no doubt researched this and feel confident in your right to not produce an ID. Constitution aside, carrying a handgun in the state of Indiana is illegal. If you possess LTCH, then you are an "exception." Therefore, the burdon is upon the gun carrier to prove he/she is an exception. It is not unreasonable for a LEO to ask you for such proof.

I've been following this thread and feel that this will likely go over well. Please don't invite trouble though. Law abiding citizens are cooperative and polite.

 

[sj kahr k40]

Media is going to actually help IMO, what cop right now wants to be seen on TV doing anything illegal?

I think that IMPD will be on their best behavior with this walk, steps are being taken to insure that we have no problems.

 

[IndyMonkey]

I've been following this thread and feel that this will likely go over well. Please don't invite trouble though. Law abiding citizens are cooperative and polite.

You have not been following it close enough to know that Joe will have a long arm and will have not reason to produce ID.

 

[MrsGungho]

Joe, you have no doubt researched this and feel confident in your right to not produce an ID. Constitution aside, carrying a handgun in the state of Indiana is illegal. If you possess LTCH, then you are an "exception." Therefore, the burdon is upon the gun carrier to prove he/she is an exception. It is not unreasonable for a LEO to ask you for such proof.

I've been following this thread and feel that this will likely go over well. Please don't invite trouble though. Law abiding citizens are cooperative and polite.

I may be mistaken but those who will not be carrying ID will also not be carrying handguns. Therefore no legal need to show ID.
You do not need a LTCH to carry a long gun in the state of Indiana, legally.

 

[IndyMonkey]

The Scenario...

My friend continues to ride her bicycle on the busy street. She is hit by a car and killed.

You do the Black Friday walk. A LEO approaches and asks for your ID. You refuse on the grounds you have done nothing wrong and there is no legal basis for his request. The LEO get flustered and things go down hill to the point you are disarmed and in cuffs. We all know that it can happen, as it did recently. All the while this is being recorded by the media.

Results...

It is little consolation to my friend and her family that she was within her legal rights to ride on the busy street, she is dead.

It is little consolation to the 2A movement that you were within your legal rights as the media spreads video of a crazy man carrying a long gun in downtown Indy who refused a simple request from a LEO to show his ID and ended up being cuffed.

Yeah you can fight it and should legally win. I'll bet your version of the story will not get near the coverage as the more "news worthy" shots of you being cuffed.

Who wins, the 2A movement or the anti 2A movement?

All I am saying is pick your fights wisely.

Anytime your rights have been violated is a battle worth fighting.

 

[sj kahr k40]

Joe, you have no doubt researched this and feel confident in your right to not produce an ID. Constitution aside, carrying a handgun in the state of Indiana is illegal. If you possess LTCH, then you are an "exception." Therefore, the burdon is upon the gun carrier to prove he/she is an exception. It is not unreasonable for a LEO to ask you for such proof.

I've been following this thread and feel that this will likely go over well. Please don't invite trouble though. Law abiding citizens are cooperative and polite.

Several members are planning on carrying only long guns because they don't need a license to carry a long gun. Therefore there should be no reason for LEO's to ask for ID.

 

[Freelancer]

After reading more about the run in at city market, it was stated the main issue that initiated the encounter with the LEO's was someone carrying an MP5 around.....which would be well outside the norm of what one would expect to see at the place where you buy cookies. I am not sure you would normally see MP5's at the place you buy cookies in Bosnia, much less Indianapolis.

True, in Indiana, we currently have the right to carry MP5's when we buy cookies, and some may feel that right needs to be vigorously defended. However, if I am eating my cookie with my kids, and someone I don't know comes in with an MP5, I will be very relieved to see a LEO check them out and vet them as non-criminal or non-psycho. If they refused to be identified or refused to cooperate, I would be relieved to see them handcuffed until their story was sorted out.

Does that make me a commie? Or make me hate the 2nd Amendment? Or do I just seriously question the judgment of someone who would bring an MP5 to a cookie shop, like I would question the judgment of someone bringing rifles near a shopping mall on Black Friday?

 

[Pocketman]

Several members are planning on carrying only long guns because they don't need a license to carry a long gun. Therefore there should be no reason for LEO's to ask for ID.

I must have missed the long gun only somewhere between pages 25 and 62. I stand corrected then.

 

[IndyMonkey]

After reading more about the run in at city market, it was stated the main issue that initiated the encounter with the LEO's was someone carrying an MP5 around.....which would be well outside the norm of what one would expect to see at the place where you buy cookies. I am not sure you would normally see MP5's at the place you buy cookies in Bosnia, much less Indianapolis.

True, in Indiana, we currently have the right to carry MP5's when we buy cookies, and some may feel that right needs to be vigorously defended. However, if I am eating my cookie with my kids, and someone I don't know comes in with an MP5, I will be very relieved to see a LEO check them out and vet them as non-criminal or non-psycho. If they refused to be identified or refused to cooperate, I would be relieved to see them handcuffed until their story was sorted out.

Does that make me a commie? Or make me hate the 2nd Amendment? Or do I just seriously question the judgment of someone who would bring an MP5 to a cookie shop, like I would question the judgment of someone bringing rifles near a shopping mall on Black Friday?

We have since decided that the mp5 falls under the handgun classification in Indiana. Once my LTCH was checked that should of been the end of the interaction, not taking my firearm from me for 45 minutes.

We were on a city sidewalk, not inside eating cookies and drinking milk.