N00B questions...

[SilentWarrior1]

Who said anything about more effective fighter? I'm saying it's more effective against multiple opponents. Especially with the right training. Something you seem to think is all that matters in this world. Well I hate to say it, but if you have 10 people coming at you about to shoot or shooting, and you have little cover, a pistol or a bolt-action semi-auto doesn't give you muc of a chance does it? So actually, full-auto would make you more effective. So really I'm not wrong. I think you just have the wrong perspective on this whole thing.

Three words. Prime Fire Rate.

What is Prime Fire Rate? Glad you asked...

Prime Fire Rate is the amount of rounds that you can put down range quickly AND accurately while engaging enemy targets. How does on obtain a Prime Fire rate? The same way you get to Carnegie Hall...

Practice.

You get faster by starting slower. Slow is smooth, smooth is fast.

Now, we've all heard about a weapon's rate of fire... but what about YOUR rate of fire? Can you hit multiple targets quickly and accurately? IF you can't, what can you do?

You can do one of two things... get a full-auto rifle by spending at LEAST 9k on just the rifle, $200 on the tax stamp, and the amount of money in ammunition it would take to feed such beast.

OR...

You can save the 1000's of dollars you would have spent on the full auto weapon, buy ammunition and training, and practice those skills taught to you. I can GUARANTEE that the money saved would be a better investment, not only in your own gear, but also in YOURSELF. Rifles are supplemental, your ability to think is more dangerous to any foe.

As stated before, Full-Auto fire is only meant for suppressive means. You will not be able to convince me otherwise. As a Combat Arms instructor and a combat veteran, I've been there and done that. I'm pretty sure that you won't be able to shake Shay on that, considering that he's probably had as much (if not more) formal training than I have.

And to be honest, three little words keep ringing in my mind.

Only HITS count.

You can't miss fast enough to catch up.

Hope this helps.

 

[SavageEagle]

Ok this thread has kinda gotten outta hand. It's your opinion that full-auto is worthless. Which to me is like saying semi-autos have no place in civil society. You took this just a little too personal and I started getting sucked into that too. Neither of us are wrong totally. But we are wrong in certain respects. I'm not wrong your not wrong. Whatever.

Who cares if I've fired a full auto? I know you can't just hold the trigger and be on target. That's what short controled bursts are for which is what they teach in basic training and the swat teams. And with the new Metal Storm rifles and pistols in production for the military our pistols and rifles will soon be C&R's. Just drop it. You're a training instructor and while I don't know your creditials, I'm sure you're not an expert. Being an instructor only makes you a little more informed. So with that being said, you are surely entitled to your opinion. But Full-auto rifles aren't a waste of ammo to have or the military wouldn't rely so heavily on them. Even the special forces.

Let's just drop the whole thing. Jeez.

 

[SavageEagle]

SilentWarrior1- I totally agree with you on rate of fire and only hits count. Which is why I still believe that whatever weapon you choose you should practice with. Which brings us back to short controlled bursts....

 

[SilentWarrior1]

I never said it was worthless... it's just impractical.

It has it's uses, yes... but in my training and experience, it's just not practical for direct action.

You say you're here to learn, I'm willing to teach. I can't help you learn if you want to argue about every point.

 

[SavageEagle]

silent, I didn't mean you said it was worthless. To clarify, that post was for Shay. He just seemed to be taking it a little personal. I'm not trying to argue every point, but I think it's naive to think a full-auto has no place in our arsenals. There's a reason the government banned these weapons and it sure wasn't because they were afraid we'd Uzi each other off the planet...

 

[SavageEagle]

I do agree their main purpose is suppressive fire, but they have other great uses too.

 

[Shay]

silent, I didn't mean you said it was worthless. To clarify, that post was for Shay. He just seemed to be taking it a little personal. I'm not trying to argue every point, but I think it's naive to think a full-auto has no place in our arsenals. There's a reason the government banned these weapons and it sure wasn't because they were afraid we'd Uzi each other off the planet...

Where does your extensive knowledge of full auto tactics come from?

Full auto is not worthless. For your "one man against an army" scenario it would make you dead quicker than other tactics.

I saw a few hundred thousand rounds fired down range last year. I have taught movement and fire drills to private citizens, military, law enforcement and civilian contractors. I have actually fired many, many full auto weapons.

What was your opinion based on again?

 

[rhino]

If you're talking about engaging multiple threats, full-auto nets you nothing (aside from the idea of suppressive fire or plain old intimidation). The time it takes to fire two or three rounds into one threat is small compared to the time it takes to transition to and effectively hit each remaining threat.

If you watch how a well-skilled operator of a select fire weapon uses it, it will be in 2-3 rounds bursts. Then it's either assess or transition to the next threat. There is very little difference between that and firing 2-3 rounds semi-auto when compared to the common factor of the time to transition between threats.

Your messages seem to indicate that you believe there is some advantage to holding the trigger back while trying to engage multiple threats. There is a word for what happens when you do this: miss.

 

[SavageEagle]

My opinion and knowledge comes from Marine Combat Tactics Manuals, Army Manuals, friends who served in the Marines, a lot of extensive military studying, combat tactics from WWII, Vietnam, Korea, Desert Storm/Shield, and the many other non-fiction military books I have read over the years. So I don't have the hands on experiance. So if you want to slam me over that go ahead. But I'm no more of an expert than anyone else in here. That's why I'm here. To learn, but to also share what I do know. If my opinion offends you, then that's your right. I won't apoloigize for that. But at least my opinion is a well-informed opinion. As is yours I'm sure.

 

[melensdad]

Seems to me that this thread is titled "NOOB questions" and that implies a lot. Why is there so much mean spirited discourse here? SavageEagle, you are being very restrained given the grief you are getting and I commend you for taking the high road.

 

[SavageEagle]

Your messages seem to indicate that you believe there is some advantage to holding the trigger back while trying to engage multiple threats. There is a word for what happens when you do this: miss.

I thought I explained about short, controlled bursts?

 

[SavageEagle]

Seems to me that this thread is titled "NOOB questions" and that implies a lot. Why is there so much mean spirited discourse here? SavageEagle, you are being very restrained given the grief you are getting and I commend you for taking the high road.

I thank you for your praise, but I think i mentioned earlier that we should just drop it as people were taking this a little personal. But it's ok. I think there is SOME good discussion coming out of this. Alot of enlighting coming from a Vet and I respect that.

And just let me say THANK YOU to all our soldiers, active, reserve, and retired. My family and I very much appreciate your sacrifices. I know none of us can repay you.

 

[Shay]

Seems to me that this thread is titled "NOOB questions" and that implies a lot. Why is there so much mean spirited discourse here? SavageEagle, you are being very restrained given the grief you are getting and I commend you for taking the high road.

SavageEagle's "Noob Questions" are getting "non-noob answers".

Just not the answers he wants to hear...

Come on melensdad, isn't this thread getting way off topic?

 

[melensdad]

Shay, I'm not sure why you must constantly attempt to belittle and make fun of others. Why don't you try to be civil?

 

[Shay]

I have done nothing uncivil.

I have pointed out exactly why SavageEagle is wrong (as have others in this thread) but my method is more direct.

 

[melensdad]

You say it is more direct. Others might suggest it is mean spirited.

 

[Shay]

You say it is more direct. Others might suggest it is mean spirited.

If you have a problem with me, take it up with me in PM or bring it up to Fenway.

Now you are REALLY bringing this thread off topic.

 

[Fenway]

Ok everyone. Let's take a deep breath, back away from the keyboard for a minute, and move on

 

[melensdad]

Shay, You are the one who brought up the off topic reference from another thread in this thread. I don't need to hide behind PMs.

 

[TomN]

I agree! Can't we all just get along?