N00B questions...

[Lars]

You can convert a pistol into a carbine but you cannot simply add a stock to a pistol without it being a short barreled rifle.

Those carbine conversion kits (Glock or 1911) have a barrel that is 16" or greater that must be installed first on the pistol in order to remain legal. Once the carbine length barrel is in place you can install a buttstock.

Adding a foregrip to a pistol makes it an AOW.

Thanks for clearing that up Shay. I knew I had read something but couldn't find it anywhere. Specifically it was regarding one of those crazy Select Fire HK Pistols from the 70's or 80's

 

[SavageEagle]

I read somewhere about attaching a pistol to an AR. Is this legal?

Think I read it in the Zombie thread...

 

[Shay]

I read somewhere about attaching a pistol to an AR. Is this legal?

Think I read it in the Zombie thread...

From my understanding of the BATF regs. it would not be legal.

 

[Ri22o]

You can convert a pistol into a carbine but you cannot simply add a stock to a pistol without it being a short barreled rifle.

Those carbine conversion kits (Glock or 1911) have a barrel that is 16" or greater that must be installed first on the pistol in order to remain legal. Once the carbine length barrel is in place you can install a buttstock.

Adding a foregrip to a pistol makes it an AOW.

I stopped by Bradis today, and oddly enough they had a LWD catalog that answered all of my questions. haha

Foregrip and stock are both NFA items.

Carbine conversion is just a rifle.

Bi-pod is not an NFA item.

 

[bigcraig]

I read somewhere about attaching a pistol to an AR. Is this legal?

Think I read it in the Zombie thread...

Attaching a pistol to any longarm is not legal, as the pistol will share the buttstock with the rifle, thus creating a short barrel rifle.

 

[SavageEagle]

Attaching a pistol to any longarm is not legal, as the pistol will share the buttstock with the rifle, thus creating a short barrel rifle.

Even if the pistol is attached in such a way that it can only be fired once it's detached from the rifle? Say like a pistol holder on a rifle?

 

[rhino]

WHile looking at some other guns, I was wondering about de-cocking... Namely with a gun like the Baby Eagle I'm currently awaiting, how do you decock the hammer without firing the weapon? It has a decocking lever, but I'm not sure off hand how it works. Also for guns without said lever, how are they decocked without firing?

For double actions guns without decockers, you have to pull the trigger and lower the hammer slowly. The prime example is a CZ75.

The safest way I know how is:

1. Hold gun in a firing grip and point muzzle in a safe direction (at something that will stop the bullet). This is the most important part. Point in a safe direction. Did I mention point in a safe direction?

2. Put your thumb (either hand) on the hammer spur and your forefinger on the front of the hammer, between the hammer and the firing pin. If your thumb slips from the hammer during the de-cock, then your finger will block the hammer and prevent a discharge of the weapon.

3. Using your thumb, pull the hammer backward as far as it will go. This will remove some pressure from the sear/hammer interface in most situations.

4. Press the trigger and hold it backward.

5. Ease the hammer forward with your thumb until it touches your support hand forefinger.

6. Release the trigger and remove your finger from the trigger guard.

7. Carefully remove your support hand forefinger and continue lowering the hammer to the half-cock notch if the gun has one, or all the way if not.

8. Holster.

 

[melensdad]

The safest way I know how is:
1.

Before #1, the first step should be to remove the magazine. Then after that, but still before #1, rack the slide to remove the round from the chamber. JMO

I don't know if the CZ75 was designed to be carried Cocked & Locked, but I know that is the way they taught to carry it at Gunsight.

 

[rhino]

Before #1, the first step should be to remove the magazine. Then after that, but still before #1, rack the slide to remove the round from the chamber. JMO

Why would you unload? That makes no sense.

If you're unloading, you can drop the mag, clear the chamber, verify the chamber is empty, then just pull the trigger and let the hammer fall.

I was talking about de-cocking a double action pistol without a decocker. That implies you're loading the gun and getting ready to carry or use it.

 

[Shay]

Why would you unload? That makes no sense.

If you're unloading, you can drop the mag, clear the chamber, verify the chamber is empty, then just pull the trigger and let the hammer fall.

I was talking about de-cocking a double action pistol without a decocker. That implies you're loading the gun and getting ready to carry or use it.

Yeah. I was wondering that as well.

On a related topic, most 1911 design pistols are not safe to be carried with the hammer down on a live round. They are designed to be carried cocked-and-locked. If that scares you, don't carry one.

 

[melensdad]

On a related topic, most 1911 design pistols are not safe to be carried with the hammer down on a live round. They are designed to be carried cocked-and-locked. If that scares you, don't carry one.

Absolutely TRUE on all counts. But no matter what safety they engineer into the 1911, it just seems silly to me to carry one with the hammer down. The Detonics Combat Master is supposedly safe to carry hammer down, their 'safety' device is an extra strong firing pin return spring! First, I don't trust that. Second, the hammer is down and must manually be cocked to put the gun into firing mode. If you have time to do that, well I suppose that could be a very intimidating sound to hear that hammer click back into position. But what if you don't have time? Seems silly to me to carry that way when the gun was designed for "cocked & locked" carry.

Why would you unload? That makes no sense.

If you're unloading, you can drop the mag, clear the chamber, verify the chamber is empty, then just pull the trigger and let the hammer fall.

I was talking about de-cocking a double action pistol without a decocker. That implies you're loading the gun and getting ready to carry or use it.

But as to this point, since you specifically mentioned the CZ75, that is a gun that is a DA/SA and at least one very famous shooting instructor suggested it be carried in the "cocked & locked" mode the way a 1911 is carried. That being the case, there is only one time that you'd really want to 'de-cock' the pistol and that is when you are putting it away. That is also the only real time that a 1911 needs to be de-cocked. If the gun is to be used for defensive purposes then it should remain ready for use, and cocked & locked is about as ready as you can get.

Other DA/SA pistols may be different, but at least with the CZ, that specific gun was a Gunsite favorite in cocked & locked mode.

That said, there is no implication that you are loading the gun and getting ready to carry/use it. With the CZ if you are going to carry/use it, then there is no reason to de-cock it.

This may simply fall into a difference of opinion category. But if I carry a CZ it is carried just like a 1911. Cocked & Locked. De-cocking comes only when the gun is being unloaded and put into storage.

 

[SavageEagle]

LOL You guys are funny! I only asked about decocking the gun, not whether or not I should carry cocked and locked. Although besides 1911's, how about other DA/SA guns? Should they all be carried cocked and locked? Like the Baby Eagle? Should it be carried that way? I ask because I don't see it reasonable to spend over a thousand dollars on a handgun when half that will buy you an equally reliable or better pistol. If I have a grand to just drop on a good gun it'll be for a good AR or Tact Shotty. That being said, don't clobber me for downing 1911's as I'm sure they are good guns. But how do you justify spending so much on a gun that may or may not require being sent to a gunsmith before it's reliable?

 

[melensdad]

LOL You guys are funny! I only asked about decocking the gun, not whether or not I should carry cocked and locked. Although besides 1911's, how about other DA/SA guns? Should they all be carried cocked and locked? Like the Baby Eagle? Should it be carried that way?

Correct me here but the Baby Eagle is a CZ clone is it not? I believe there are multiple variants of the B.E. but if you have one of the that mimics the original CZ 75 with the frame mounted safety, then that gun could easily be carried cocked & locked just like a 1911. I'm simply not sure if Magnum Research held true to the original design or if they modified it to a slide mounted safety, decocker, etc.

As for the question "should you carry it cocked and locked," that is a tactical question and the answer will depend on the school of tactical teaching you follow.

I ask because I don't see it reasonable to spend over a thousand dollars on a handgun when half that will buy you an equally reliable or better pistol.

For under $400 you can pick up a GI Rock Island Armory 1911 that has an excellent track record for being ultra reliable.

That being said, don't clobber me for downing 1911's as I'm sure they are good guns. But how do you justify spending so much on a gun that may or may not require being sent to a gunsmith before it's reliable?

I've not had that experience and I admit to owning dozens of various 1911s. Maybe others have had that experience. Its just not mine. That said, I've got some that I've had tricked out with thousands of dollars worth of customization and others that I had built up custom at the factory custom shop. I justify it because I only use disposable income for my gun purchases, but again, I don't have the experience of NEEDING to make a gun reliable.

What I have see, and I've seen it with different types of guns, but most often with 1911s, is human error.

For example, I've got some mega-buck beryllium copper framed target pistols that were jamming up on me. Swapped out the springs, sent them back to the builder (twice) and kept having the same problems. ULTIMATELY the problem was NOT the guns, but rather my Dillon 550B's powder measure. I was getting powder charges that were so light that the guns simply wouldn't cycle. I figured it out only after shooting (or attempting to shoot) a batch of my target loads through other guns and ended up with the same problem. That is HUMAN ERROR, not the fault of the gun. No gun would have reliably functioned with that batch of bad ammo.

I've seen guys out at the range that were shooting groupings that were spread all over the paper and bitching, but then comment to me that I'd be lucky to hit the target with my 45s because of the recoil, only to watch me punch hole after hole into a decent sized group. When I'd switch guns with them they'd see me punch similar groups with their gun and they'd be hitting the wall and ceiling with my guns, and limp wrist gun jams are not uncommon either. HUMAN ERROR. I'm far from the best shot, in fact I don't even consider myself to be a good shot, but at tactical ranges anyone should be able to hold a modest size group if they practice.

 

[rhino]

Although besides 1911's, how about other DA/SA guns? Should they all be carried cocked and locked? Like the Baby Eagle? Should it be carried that way?

With some da/sa guns you have the option of how you wish to carry them. They are equally safe "cocked and locked" as you would with a single action gun like a 1911 or hi-power, as they are with the hammer decocked so the first shot is double action. It's a personal preference thing.

 

[SavageEagle]

Okay I have another question. NFA class firearms. Machine guns. Converting an AR-15 to full auto. I know you have to register the firearm and all parts. How hard is getting the license to do so? Does anyone have experiance with this? Can you legally own a full auto, silencer, etc in Indiana? I think these are Class III items are they not??

 

[rhino]

I'll let someone who knows a lot more about this than I do supply details, but I do know a few things.

First, "Class III" is the type of FFL you need to sell such weapons.

You can own a supressor or transferable machine gun in Indiana, but you have to complete the appropriate paperwork and pay the Federal transfer tax of $200 for each to do so.

You may not (unless you are a Federally licensed manufacturer) legally convert any weapon to full auto or select-fire. This was made illegal for mere citizens in 1986 with the help of the late, great President Reagan. The only machine guns our government deigns we may own had to be manufactured and registered in 1986 or before. That's why prices are incredibly high ... the supply is fixed, essentially forever. Whatever was available for legal transfer back then is all that is available now and all that will be available in the future.

 

[Shay]

Okay I have another question. NFA class firearms. Machine guns. Converting an AR-15 to full auto. I know you have to register the firearm and all parts. How hard is getting the license to do so? Does anyone have experiance with this? Can you legally own a full auto, silencer, etc in Indiana? I think these are Class III items are they not??

There are two classes of firearms in the NFA: Title I and Title II.

Title I guns are pistols, rifles and shotguns that fall inside the standard definitions.

Title II items are suppressors, short barreled shotguns, short barreled rifles, machine guns and AOWs (Any Other Weapon) - a "catch all" for guns that don't match the standard definition but don't fit into another category.

FFLs come in many levels.

01 - sells Title I guns
03 - can collect guns on the C&R list and have them shipped directly to their home
07 - Manufacture of Title I firearms

Other FFLs are needed to make ammo, make destructive devices, pawn broker or gunsmith.

Then comes the SOT (Special Occupation Tax) classes
03 - can sell Title II items (mistakenly called "class 3 items")
02 - can manufacture Title II items

You will typically see something like an 01 FFL with a Class 03 SOT. This means they are a gun dealer that can also sell Title II items. Also common is an 07 FFL with a Class 02 SOT meaning a gun manufacture that can also make Title II items.

Make sense so far?

The registration of transferable machine guns was closed in 1986. No new machines can be made for general transfer. Machine guns can still be made by 07 Class 2s for police and military as well as R&D and demo. Only machine guns made before May 1986 can still be transfered between individuals hence the very, very high prices because of scarcity.

You can still make a new AOW, suppressor, SBR or SBS and have it registered in the NFA registry.

There is a $5 transfer tax for AOWs and a $200 transfer tax for pretty much everything else.

That's a short primer on the NFA.

 

[SavageEagle]

So if I wanted an AR made into a full auto, there's no legal way of making it happen?

 

[Lars]

So if I wanted an AR made into a full auto, there's no legal way of making it happen?

If you happen to own a PRE-1986 M16 Sear
you could legally convert it to full auto. (although there are like 16 parts that are different between an AR and an select fire rifle.) the Sear is the registered machine gun.

These are thousands of dollars.


Now, if you would put half the effort into researching training that you've put into NFA items, you would be in good shape.

 

[Fenway]

Nice post Shay. I learned a lot there.