Marines accused of desecrating bodies

[straittactical]

i don't care all this PC crap going to kill us in the long run and weaken are military......... that insurgent could have killed some of are brothers ......... war is a nasty Vail thing and bad things happen in it, it brings the worse and best in anyone who seen it........but i can't stand the media that try to spin war and make it a PC thing ...........was it smart for those soldier to tape or photo it no......do i blame them for doing it no.........i ate dirt in Bosnia, afgan. , Iraq ......lost friends and a part of my self in those places.....the only people who profit from this is the media.....

+ 1 and rep

 

[straittactical]

What a crass thing to say! How would you like it if it had been a dead relative of yours being pissed on by our enemies? It's not how we as American service members conduct ourselves! These actions only serve to foster the Taliban description of an American. I don't wish to be lumped in with the lower rungs of our society! My servie to the country was honorable, by choice and action. Wrong is wrong no matter where you are from!

how would you like it if that taliban member killed your brother or son. I say the hell with them.

 

[Classic]

They would have been notified anyway...

I was just wondering how Gibbs is gonna react when they give him this case.

 

[melensdad]

There are 1.5 billion of them. Are you advocating genocide?

Because that is the alternative, win the hearts and mind or murder them all.

blah . . blah . . . blah . . .

Pro it is totally unreasonable to frame your argument the way you did.

Sure there are 1.5 Billion of them. But only a TINY FRACTION of that number are zealots who need killing.

Nobody here is seriously and sincerely arguing genocide.

But I think most here are suggesting that when a bully sucker punches you then you hit them so hard that you knock them down, you leave them bloody, and you leave them without means to get back up and attack you.

So putting that into practice in Afghanistan we screwed up long ago. They destroyed our Twin Towers, they dropped a plane into the Pentagon and they destroyed a plane full of passengers in Pennsylvania. As a response we should have simply trashed their nation, destroyed their ability to attack, and left them living in rubble. Pissing on their faces is just icing on the cake of what they should have gotten.

Instead we broke their systems and decided to rebuild them. That was our mistake. We should have left them broken as an example for the next madmen. No rebuilding. They didn't come here to rebuild our buildings. We shouldn't rebuilt their nation.

We should f*** them up and leave them in the dust.

 

[spearheadersarge]

how would you like it if that taliban member killed your brother or son. I say the hell with them.

I been twice, so I know. It's war, people make the choice and volunteer to serve. That's patriotic and couragous! If I or a friend of mine or sadly a relative was killed I would mourn their passing and celebrate the fact they were willing to defend America and what it stands for. These Marines are heroic for serving, no doubt. Their actions were dispicable and moronic. What justification leads to making one's self feel better by urinating on a dead body? None IMHO! If It had of been one of my guys, I would have butt stroked him in the freakin head! As an American, A soldier, and a human being, we are better than that! Serve with Honor or don't serve, period! They will be punished harshly and made an example of. That is one thing I am sure of. It is justly deserved!

 

[CarmelHP]

I don't condone their actions, but I am having a hard time getting worked up over this.

 

[RockofStrength]

Thanks for granting me permission to do this. I think that vile actions are all these bastards can understand. Start speaking their language and maybe they will begin to get the point.

They are trying to speak our language (the language of money) by drawing us into wars and by trying to destroy our economic infrastructure.

I have found that if you "talk" to the in a way that they understand then they may start to figure out a few things about life and how they need to act if they want to stay alive.

There is no honor in war. War is hell.

On the contrary. When men find bodies of their own desecrated, their families slaughtered etc all it does is drive them to fight harder. Fighting a war to the fullest does not include acting like a child throwing a tantrum and making gestures that serve only to drive the enemy to further lengths to harm us.

We experienced a similar situation in the aftermath of the Battle of Mogadishu which you doubtless remember from 1993. They drug some of our fallen through the streets, parading about and glorying in killing our "invincible Rangers". Had politics not interfered our men were more than willing to burn the whole city down to avenge such an affront. That desecration would have resulted in a massacre of ancient proportions.

Kill them how you like: snipe them, bomb them, poison their wells and gun them down mercilessly. Desecrating the dead is a meaningless waste of time that only makes the situation worse and strengthens the enemy particularly since we are fighting a global guerrilla war.

 

[Ryninger]

.

 

[melensdad]

On the contrary. . .

I was being sarcastic. I don't really give a damn what you think and I certainly don't need your permission to **** on the faces of the enemy.

 

[RockofStrength]

I was being sarcastic. I don't really give a damn what you think and I certainly don't need your permission to **** on the faces of the enemy.

I never claimed to have that authority. I was merely pointing out how the illogical, hyper emotionally influenced path you deem acceptable causes harm without any tactical or strategic benefit. This is a forum, after all, where we ought to be able to have a reasonable discussion.

 

[Blackhawk2001]

Lol, actually religion does play a factor in this "conflict". Many think that part of our involvement is due to our alliance with Israel and their conflict with Islam has been going on for a long long long time.

Why we are getting involved in a situation between two "brothers" makes no sense to me (those more familiar with origins of Judaism and Islam will understand this).

It is the root of the involvement, not a factor.

Actually, religion - specifically the two religions mentioned - is just a convenient excuse to justify ancient racial hatreds among tribes and to provide a justification for tribal alliances of traditional enemies against an outsider - us. There are also other issues involved, but using religion as an excuse is convenient for "leaders" who could never get warring peoples to unite another way.

 

[Blackhawk2001]

They should have defecated on them, too.

A willingness to go above and beyond with violence and disrespect is what signifies earnestness in a conflict. This isn't Yorktown in 1781. Without common cultural ties, the Marquess of Queensbury rules don't apply and I don't recall anyone from the Taliban signing on to the Geneava Conventions, either.

If we're going go to this much effort to shoot and kill people, pissing on them once they've been dispatched really shouldn't be a topic of discussion.

I wanted to read most of these posts before I commented directly on this. Although I served 39 years, I never got shot at by an enemy (did get shot at by friends but that's another story altogether) - that I know of. As such, perhaps I "don't qualify" to have an opinion about combat infantrymen engaged in asymmetrical warfare and the atrocities they see and endure. However, I've worked with professional Marine officers and NCOs during both my military and civilian careers, and I've been around young Marines in combat. My impression is that, while the Marine Corps is a very professional organization, young Marines are barely housetrained animals who need to be closely supervised by their professional NCOs and officers lest they get into trouble such as this. Do I have any trouble believing this incident happened or that it was deliberately videoed and deliberately released onto the internet? Nope. I've seen young Marines and young Army infantry types do dumber things in the field. Do I condone such conduct, even under extreme provocation? Absolutely not!

There has been a good deal of discussion over the years whether it's better to be a "soldier" or a "warrior", with one or the other being in the ascendancy depending upon which traits you ascribe to which definition.
These are the definitions I'll use for this argument.

Traditionally, "warriors" were hardy fighters who fought mainly for personal glory and loot. They didn't fight particularly well as groups, being more concerned with displaying their bravery and battle prowess than achieving an objective, and would tend to break and run if their group was being defeated or for any of a number of other reasons. Examples of "warriors" would be the Vikings and Zulus - and the Afghans.

"Soldiers" on the other hand, were expected to maintain discipline and their position in battle, and were expected to be able to fight alongside their comrades and support them in battle. Individual battle prowess was not sought after at the expense of one's comrades, and soldiers were expected to maintain the battle line until wounded or dead. Examples of "soldiers" in this context might be the Spartans at Thermopylae and certainly include the Romans, both sides of our Civil War, and any 20th Century First World Army. The best "soldiers" normally display all the good attributes of "warriors" tempered by self-discipline, proper use of initiative and unit cohesion.

Our professional military personnel are all volunteers and they are expected to maintain their professionalism under all circumstances. For Marines, who have a fetish for Duty, Honor, Country pounded into them in Boot Camp, as well as for any other professional American military personnel, the Rules of Warfare are constantly brought to the fore when they're enroute to a combat zone. American soldiers are expected to maintain discipline and to fight in accordance with those rules and with what we perceive as "common decency" no matter what the provocation. To do otherwise brings shame on their units, their branch, and the nation. Giving in to impulses to desecrate bodies, while emotionally fulfilling, also gives additional ammunition to our enemies to use against us by inspiring fresh hatred for us while we're trying to win over the general population.

I don't particularly care how many atrocities any particular soldier has seen during his/her service, although I concede that anyone has a breaking point and that breaking point, once reached, can result in reprisals based on the emotions roused in the soldier. However, those reprisals MUST be denounced and punished - where brought to light - in order to maintain the good order and discipline necessary to keep soldiers a cohesive fighting force instead of an undisciplined mob of "warriors".

These particular Marines will undoubtedly be punished far more severely than they ordinarily would have been because their actions have lead to an international incident, but they have no one to blame but themselves.

 

[SemperFiUSMC]

[One of the best posts ever on INGO

+1 and repped.

This incident embarrasses me and should embarrass all Marines. It's not so much because of what they did - I don't put pissing on dead enemies at anywhere near the attrocity level. They didn't desecrate or mutilate any bodies. There were no war trophies taken. But they did something wrong, videoed it, and in its release brought discredit and shame on the Marine Corps, their fellow Marines (even those of us that can't necessarily fit into our uniforms anymore), and future Marines. Marines live by a code of honor. These individuals breeched it. That above all saddens me.

I am incenced by military haters like Hillary apologizing and pointing their fingers at Marines while lecturing us as if we need to be told what is and isn't honorable. **** you you ******* *****. We know, and we don't need the dyke wife of a draft dodger lecturing us.

I also hope the Taliban enemy that they killed went straight to hell. Regardless of how these people (savages is a better term) are portrayed, they are not innocent men trying to get by. They are fanatics who are a menace to society, ours and theirs. I have no sympathy for their deaths.

I can't say in younger years and similar circumstances I wouldn't have act the same. I can't say that I would. I don't know the situation that lead to the events, although I am sure they will all be aired. I guarantee I would not have dishonored my brothers or my beloved Corps by memorializing it in video. When will people learn that Facebook is not their friend?

These Marines need their pee pees smacked and then sent back to the field to do their jobs in the highest tradition of the Marine Corps.

 

[RockofStrength]

Semperfi and Blackhawk need reps. Somehow I am unable to give any today

 

[jeremy]

This isn't the first time a Marine "sends a message".
Back in the late '60 and early '70 some Marines carried "death cards" for their kills. They were warnings to let our enemy know IF/When they came south that they would be dealt with in a ruthless and decisive fashion. Plenty of dismemberment and mutilization on both sides. We learned quick not to fight a humane war if we were going to make it back to the world.
It was drilled into our heads 24/7 to win at all costs and show our enemy the cruelty and methods he used against us.

Let me see if I can word this so you can understand me...
It is one thing to toss Death Cards out, pissing on a Corpse takes it to another ****ing level. By all means fight the enemy with Ferocity. But don't do something that would **** off your family. Revenge Motivation is one of their largest pulls to the Talib lines. They understand Ferocity and Brutality, Desecration of a Dead Fighter is something even they do not do...

Knowing the mentality of the Corps I'd be very surprised if it's changed much if any.

Really, hate to tell you the Corps has changed a LOT since your time...
Ask me how I know.

You don't like Marines? Fine. You can do the dirty deeds no one else wants.
Like said a half dozen times here. Stupid.
Semper Fi

Stupid, stupid?!
Really,
I come from a Military Family we cover ALL the Branches of the Military all 4 of them! I would also venture to say I am not the Boy Scout that you think I am either. I would Venture a Wager I probably have more time in Combat than you have on Active Duty. I have done my turns in the Suck, Papa...

Whom is the ignorant **** know?!
Know your audience before you jump to assumptions....

 

[jeremy]

Pretty sad when even my Heathen self with my Bloodthirsty Barbaric tendencies understands why desecrating the Corpses of my Enemies is a bad idea...

 

[SemperFiUSMC]

Let me see if I can word this so you can understand me...
It is one thing to toss Death Cards out, pissing on a Corpse takes it to another ****ing level. By all means fight the enemy with Ferocity. But don't do something that would **** off your family. Revenge Motivation is one of their largest pulls to the Talib lines. They understand Ferocity and Brutality, Desecration of a Dead Fighter is something even they do not do...

So I imagined when they were dragging dead soldiers through the streets of Mogadishu? Does the name Staff Sgt. William David Cleveland ring a bell?

I respect your posts immensely Jeremy, but let's please not pretend that pissing on a dead body is in any way morally equivilent to this: U.S Soldier dragged through Mogadishu « Iconic Photos (NOTE: VERY GRAPHIC and will probably upset anyone who views, but I must protest this comparison of what we do vs. what they do).

 

[jeremy]

So I imagined when they were dragging dead soldiers through the streets of Mogadishu? Does the name Staff Sgt. William David Cleveland ring a bell?

I respect your posts immensely Jeremy, but let's please not pretend that pissing on a dead body is in any way morally equivilent to this: U.S Soldier dragged through Mogadishu « Iconic Photos (NOTE: VERY GRAPHIC and will probably upset anyone who views, but I must protest this comparison of what we do vs. what they do).

I remember the SSG Cleveland incident, all to well. I remember as a young Soldier being madder than hell. I remember how mad all my peers were about the incident. I remember how mad the Junior NCOs were. I remember how cold hearted my SFC was about the incident. He said never do anything to the Enemy Dead that you think will make someone feel the way you are feeling now.

I am not arguing the Morality or the Severity of the Desecration...

Those were Sammies that done that act. To the best of my knowledge, the Talibs do not do this. I know the Pashtoon feeling on Desecration of the Dead...

 

[spearheadersarge]

I was being sarcastic. I don't really give a damn what you think and I certainly don't need your permission to **** on the faces of the enemy.

No, but knowing it was against the rules, you should be willing to embrace the consequences of your actions, correct? If not then why do it?

 

[SemperFiUSMC]

I remember the SSG Cleveland incident, all to well. I remember as a young Soldier being madder than hell. I remember how mad all my peers were about the incident. I remember how mad the Junior NCOs were. I remember how cold hearted my SFC was about the incident. He said never do anything to the Enemy Dead that you think will make someone feel the way you are feeling now.

I am not arguing the Morality or the Severity of the Desecration...

Those were Sammies that done that act. To the best of my knowledge, the Talibs do not do this. I know the Pashtoon feeling on Desecration of the Dead...

Google "Taliban beheading" or "Taliban execution" and look at some of the pictures and watch the videos and see what happens to the bodies after the head is removed and the screaming stops. You'll see what real desecration looks like.

I'm not defending the Marines actions. I am outraged by the dishonor heaped upon my Marine Corps. But the idea that our enemy has clean hands is not supported by any facts.