Malaysian Airlines Boeing 777 crash/shot down in Ukraine near Russian border

[T.Lex]

Oh, we should get the Dutch to fight a ground war in Ukraine? And fund it? We've already given the Ukraine over $1 Billion that we don't have. Now we should give money to the Dutch to fight a ground war in the Ukraine. That worked out so well the last time major powers got involved in that region.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/28/world/europe/senate-approves-1-billion-in-aid-for-ukraine.html

The Dutch are more likely to be able to build a coalition than we are. Because of the lack of comprehensive, coherhent... oh you know the rest.

We've pledged $1B, but haven't given it yet. And besides, if we do give it, but don't also help them defend themselves, we've then just given $1B to Putin. That doesn't make much sense, either.

 

[mrjarrell]

There is going to be no "coalition of the willing" (Hmmm...where have we heard that term before) to take on Russian backed insurgents in the Ukraine. The EU will never go that route. It's hard enough to get them to back substantial sanctions, due to their reliance on Russian gas. It's just not going to happen. Our options are limited and no-one's going to start a war with Russia. Not even a proxy war. That's just insane.

 

[T.Lex]

Insane - a year ago, who was predicting Russian annexation of the Crimean?

It seems to me that there would be a coalition - including the UK and Germany - willing to assist in clearing out the pro-Russian separatists now that they've shot down a civilian airliner. That could be a game changer, if there is the will.

Alas, I recognize there likely is not. So, we are only disagreeing in an intellectual debate kind of way.

A year from now, most of eastern Ukraine will be Russian - by culture and border.

A year after that, maybe all of it, at least on the Moscow-published maps.

 

[ArcadiaGP]

Cockpit of MH 17 found sawed in half at crash site

 

[88GT]

Cockpit of MH 17 found sawed in half at crash site

From the link:

The monitors said said large parts of the cockpit -- and every part of the fuselage -- were carried off. They said they are not sure why such vital pieces of evidence from the downed plane were tampered with.

This is why Ron Paul looks like an idiot. It would be one thing if the evidence didn't practically scream separatist and Russian involvement. But it does.

 

[HoughMade]

Propaganda machine....my aunt fanny.

If, as it becomes increasingly more obvious, pro Russian separatists shot the plane down....what propaganda are we talking about? The plane was shot down. The first, loudest and most in-credible propaganda I heard about this incident was from Russia claiming Ukraine did it on purpose....for some reason they couldn't articulate.

Assuming what the evidence is showing, the people who did it are supported by Russia pursuing Russian goals. Is that propaganda, or simply a recitation of their mission statement? The only question is whether they knew it was civilian, and I doubt they did.

I don't get the "propaganda machine" stuff. This happened. It's not a fairy tale made up to scare the west.

 

[T.Lex]

Plus, they had to diesel-chain-saw the cockpit in half to make sure there weren't any survivors trapped in there.

 

[mrjarrell]

Vice seems to be the only news org that can do anything. They have a better view than the others and this latest dispatch shows a pretty decent picture of who's actually holding things up and interfering. Paints a pretty convincing picture of who doesn't want the truth to come out.


[video=youtube_share;lNXf_HncM20]http://youtu.be/lNXf_HncM20[/video]

 

[KG1]

I'm convinced.

 

[88GT]

Vice seems to be the only news org that can do anything. They have a better view than the others and this latest dispatch shows a pretty decent picture of who's actually holding things up and interfering. Paints a pretty convincing picture of who doesn't want the truth to come out.

Tru dat. If half the world's media can "imbed" reporters in with active combat units, why is so hard to cover this story?


In response to the PM of the People's Republic of Donetsk (or whatever the official name was), all I can say is this:

 

[88GT]

This fire is dying. It needs more fuel.

Russians fed conspiracy theories on Ukraine crash



And I see they've consulted Mr. Paul:

On Tuesday, the paper appeared to suggest that the jetliner was shot down by a Ukrainian military plane with American help: "A Ukrainian attack plane and an American spy satellite were following the fallen Boeing," a report claimed.

 

[KG1]

This fire is dying. It needs more fuel.

Russians fed conspiracy theories on Ukraine crash



And I see they've consulted Mr. Paul:

I read that earlier...No propaganda there.

 

[HoughMade]

We all know that propaganda only comes from the Ukraine and U.S......oh yeah, and Israel.

 

[ZombieApocolypse]

In that case, I would have him put together a comprehensive, coherent foreign policy. I'd settle for coherent. I'd probably even settle for just rational.

Practically, speaking, I would go back to my other post. Push forward for the missile defense shield in Eastern Europe. Provide direct assistance in the Ukraine for them to protect their borders. (Domestically, we need to get that under control, too, but that's a different thread.)

There are a ton of options - including backchanneling support to the Netherlands to push for a coalition of the willing to help Ukraine impose peace. The Dutch have every reason to be righteously indignant. They should take the lead.

Your super awesome foreign policy just got the US into a war with a superpower and put missile defense weapons in the bands of seperatists and/or Russia. Bravo

I guess being the world police does come at a high cost

 

[ArcadiaGP]

Malaysia Airlines Wreckage 'Significantly Altered' - ABC News

 

[Expat]

Russia Times is reporting Duane Barry was on the flight.

 

[T.Lex]

Your super awesome foreign policy just got the US into a war with a superpower and put missile defense weapons in the bands of seperatists and/or Russia. Bravo

How do you figure? Do you really think Russia will push into an obvious war? Or, to put it another way, the reality is we are already in a proxy war. Several actually. Back to the Cold War Future.

The lack of a foreign policy paves the way for Russia to re-extend its boundaries into Europe, relatively peacefully. I don't think the US should be ok with that.

 

[jamil]

Your super awesome foreign policy just got the US into a war with a superpower and put missile defense weapons in the bands of seperatists and/or Russia. Bravo

I guess being the world police does come at a high cost

Does not follow.

 

[88GT]

Russia Times is reporting Duane Barry was on the flight.

You must be a libertarian as I see you are referencing RT.

 

[Expat]

You must be a libertarian as I see you are referencing RT.

Yeah, that's it, that's the ticket...