Let it fly.....SWAT cleared.

[FCSD 23-18]

So you guys don't say anything like, "He's down" or "Threat eliminated" or anything like that to indicate to the rest of the team to stop shooting?

I sure as hell don't want to be an innocent by-standard at any type of situation that you are at if that's how you do your job. By firing more than what is necessary to eliminate the threat you are simply putting others at risk. Innocent people. Remember, bullets go through walls and they fragment off of solid surfaces.

I'd say shooting a single person more than 60 times is more than excessive. Even if the first few are justified, there's no need to have an entire team go one after another shooting the person. That's simply desecration of human remains.

Dupe response see below post

 

[TriggerWork]

I'm not bashing, but I suggest we stop sending SWAT to serve warrants on everything from parking tickets to escaped convicts. Just because you have a SWAT team doesn't mean you have to use them for everything.

 

[FCSD 23-18]

So you guys don't say anything like, "He's down" or "Threat eliminated" or anything like that to indicate to the rest of the team to stop shooting?

I sure as hell don't want to be an innocent by-standard at any type of situation that you are at if that's how you do your job. By firing more than what is necessary to eliminate the threat you are simply putting others at risk. Innocent people. Remember, bullets go through walls and they fragment off of solid surfaces.

I'd say shooting a single person more than 60 times is more than excessive. Even if the first few are justified, there's no need to have an entire team go one after another shooting the person. That's simply desecration of human remains.

Only the team knows what happened, but the subject could have still had the weapon in his hand and could have still been moving. In real life when someone is shot they don't just die like in the movies unless it is a CNS shot. Also yes over 60 rounds were fired but not all of the 60 rounds hit the subject. I could be wrong but I think only 20 or so rounds actually hit him.

 

[ckcollins2003]

Ok so I'm sleeping on my couch, I wake up to police sirens right outside my house, my wife saying there are men with guns outside, and there is someone beating on my door yelling "SHERIFFS DEPARTMENT SEARCH WARRANT" over and over again. I can tell you what I'm not going to do and that is grab my AR 15 and take up a defensive position while yelling Ive got something for you. Oh and I can guarantee you that I'm not going to point my weapon at an entry team as they kick in my door. When was the last time there was a home invasion by thugs that used a police siren, yelled search warrant while beating on the door, and used an entry team.

Come on man, if it is a big red truck with hoses and ladders hanging off of it and a Dalmatian in the passenger seat its a firetruck!!

Where did you get your information about this case? I can't hear them yell anything about a search warrant, and since he had no drugs in his home and wasn't doing anything wrong, even if they had said something, he most likely lives by more houses and probably thought it was at someone else's doorstep. However nowhere in any article does it state he knew they were coming, nor do the officers state that they identified themselves properly.

Try your smartass remarks on someone less educated. I'm not blaming the raid team for serving the warrant but I'd like to see what you guys in blue do when someone busts down your door.

Oh wait, that's right, it doesn't matter does it? You have a badge so you are always right and above the law...

I'm glad I know good officers personally because if I only went by most of you on here I'd hate police officers with a passion.

 

[ckcollins2003]

Only the team knows what happened, but the subject could have still had the weapon in his hand and could have still been moving. In real life when someone is shot they don't just die like in the movies unless it is a CNS shot. Also yes over 60 rounds were fired but not all of the 60 rounds hit the subject. I could be wrong but I think only 20 or so rounds actually hit him.

Tucson SWAT Team Defends Shooting Iraq Marine Veteran 60 Times - ABC News

Right here it states that 71 rounds were fired and 60 hit him.

Yes, only the team knows what happened and according to your know-how you should know that most of the time bodies twitch.

And just because he is on the ground moving doesn't mean they have the right to keep shooting... Once he is down and hasn't even yet fired a shot at them they could have easily walked over, kicked the weapon away and conducted in a professional manner. Rather than move in and continue to shoot the guy in front of his family...

You can back them up all you want over conducting the warrant and doing their job. I'll agree with you, it's not SWAT's job to check the intel, but they are professionals, or are thought to be, and should conduct themselves in such a way.

And not allowing the paramedics inside the home for almost an hour?!?! You going to back them up on that one too? Go with your boys in blue, I'll go with my boys in green.

I mean hell, even bin Laden only got shot twice! They shot a U.S. Marine in front of his family 60 freakin times!

 

[FCSD 23-18]

actually i have cleared many structures and didnt always engage everyone with a weapon. people are allowed to have weapons in the sand box too. my main concern during a cqb op is their intent towards my team. them holding a weapon alone does not sign the check even in combat. police have to be even more careful and sure before pulling the trigger. especially when your entering someone elses home.
but I worked with professionals, not ass clowns like you saw in that video.

I worded my question to you wrong, let me try agian.

You enter the house and Hodjie has an AK47 pointed directly at you and your team. I'm sure you would take him out without questioning his intent, if not I wouldn't want to be on your team bro. I got hit in Iraq in a scenario such as this in 2004 but instead of a gun the guy had on a suicide vest while we were raiding a bomb maker, only part of the vest detonated becouse it was not complete. Thanks for your service I dont know you but consider you a brother in arms.

 

[FCSD 23-18]

Where did you get your information about this case? I can't hear them yell anything about a search warrant, and since he had no drugs in his home and wasn't doing anything wrong, even if they had said something, he most likely lives by more houses and probably thought it was at someone else's doorstep. However nowhere in any article does it state he knew they were coming, nor do the officers state that they identified themselves properly.

Try your smartass remarks on someone less educated. I'm not blaming the raid team for serving the warrant but I'd like to see what you guys in blue do when someone busts down your door.

Oh wait, that's right, it doesn't matter does it? You have a badge so you are always right and above the law...

I'm glad I know good officers personally because if I only went by most of you on here I'd hate police officers with a passion.

Before you go running your ignorant mouth I suggest you watch the damn video agian and open you friggen ears. Educated right!!

 

[E5RANGER375]

I worded my question to you wrong, let me try agian.

You enter the house and Hodjie has an AK47 pointed directly at you and your team. I'm sure you would take him out without questioning his intent, if not I wouldn't want to be on your team bro. I got hit in Iraq in a scenario such as this in 2004 but instead of a gun the guy had on a suicide vest while we were raiding a bomb maker, only part of the vest detonated becouse it was not complete. Thanks for your service I dont know you but consider you a brother in arms.

yeah then id take them out. i almost took some of them out for bothering me while I was taking a dump on the road one day
thanks same to you. i still dont lump war into even close to the same category as police work though. hazards of general police work are overrated and inflated. its just hype to get people fired up. of coarse some people are gonna die. just like in every profession. but when you are stupidly pursuing speeders at 100 plus miles an hour or kicking in peoples doors for an ounce of weed, I think stupid things happen for stupid decisions. but then people try to shamwow us into believing it was the only way and bla bla bla, pot kills, SWAT teams need tanks, etc.

 

[FCSD 23-18]

I've watched the video 4 times, it hasn't changed. Maybe you should (text deleted) try defending what you sworn to defend, which would be the Constitution. Or did they change that to "Other Officers" during the ceremony?

Please someone else watch this video and tell me they can hear the team yelling "Sheriffs Department Search Warrant open the door" if Im wrong I will conceed but Im not its right there in the video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XP0f00_JMak

ckcollins, I will respectfully ask that you check your language as my kids read thes forums and I do not want them reading your sexual refrences, I thought that this was a safe family friendly site.

 

[PointFiveO]

So Ranger, because you have nothing else to say to me you are having every one of your friends post negative feedback for me? That's very mature of you. Pick fights, lose them, then just have all of your buddies hit negative feedback. Silencing those who you disagree with, hmmm that sounds very familiar.

 

[ckcollins2003]

ckcollins, I will respectfully ask that you check your language as my kids read thes forums and I do not want them reading your sexual refrences, I thought that this was a safe family friendly site.

If it's that offensive I'll be banned. You may be a cop but this is the internet and your jurisdiction ends at the click of a mouse.

Now, back to our debate. I know the media exaggerates, so lets say he really is only shot 20 times, do you really not call that excessive? Are you claiming that 71 shots fired is not putting any innocent people in that remote area in harms way?

I could care less about the evidence that got the warrant. I hold the judge responsible for signing the no-knock warrant with little to no evidence to go on, but I still blame the officers for endangering his kid and wife, not letting the paramedics in, and changing their story to benefit themselves.

You may disagree but I don't really care what you think because you will always defend the guy in blue, even if it is at the cost of a war veteran just as you claim to be.

 

[RockofStrength]

They shot wayyy too many shots, period. If he pointed a gun at them I can see why they were cleared of any wrongdoing, but that was pure uneccessary use of force. Not to mention, did you see the breach and entry? It looked like a crowd of children. And what about the officer that pushes his way in to get a one handed pistol into the fray, is that standard procedure? Come on... But really, they hit their siren and they were yelling about who they were, so the last thing he should have done was go for his firearm.

Whoever claimed they didn't announce who they were must have MUCH better ears than I do. Because I
can hear the unit at the door screaming AND knocking, I just can't hear what they are saying. One would assume they are identifying themselves.

On the contrary. That is the first thing he should have done: plenty of people have impersonated cops in an effort to make their home invasions easier (Toledo man charged with home invasion, impersonating cop : News : ToledoontheMove.com) (Police: Home invasion suspects impersonate officers | KBOI 2 - Boise News, Weather, Sports and Breaking News | Boise, Idaho | News). The cops should have approached the residence and issued the warrant and showed their identification if they insisted on arresting him in his home. Random dudes in black uniforms with the word SWAT stenciled in it are not necessarily police officers, especially to those who (ironically) trust the police to not act like thugs by breaking into their houses without any reasonable attempt at forcing a willing surrender.

 

[E5RANGER375]

So Ranger, because you have nothing else to say to me you are having every one of your friends post negative feedback for me? That's very mature of you. Pick fights, lose them, then just have all of your buddies hit negative feedback. Silencing those who you disagree with, hmmm that sounds very familiar.

dude what are you talking about? i havent asked anyone to neg rep you,. if your getting it you earned it. if i was pettitioning for you to get neg repped then trust me you would already have at least one red badge by now. Ive seen guys like you before on here. you think I dream about you or something. tomorrow I wont even remember our arguement or your username. thats how much I care. i get in disagreements here all the time. thats because i go balls out defending points I believe in and I try to convince others to jump on the wagon. sometimes I even change my mind and admit i was wrong on an issue because someone argued their point better than me. so instead of crying about a couple reps your getting and accusing me of trying to silence you, why dont you argue your point and try to add to the debate here?
also, you dont melt or shutdown once you receive a certain amount of neg rep. you can still post. so I fail to see how anyone neg repping you is silencing you? loosen up man. but if your having a high school flashback of being silenced by being stuffed in a locker then I cant help you there sorry.

 

[UncleMike]

If it's that offensive I'll be banned. You may be a cop but this is the internet and your jurisdiction ends at the click of a mouse.

Now, back to our debate. I know the media exaggerates, so lets say he really is only shot 20 times, do you really not call that excessive? Are you claiming that 71 shots fired is not putting any innocent people in that remote area in harms way?

I could care less about the evidence that got the warrant. I hold the judge responsible for signing the no-knock warrant with little to no evidence to go on, but I still blame the officers for endangering his kid and wife, not letting the paramedics in, and changing their story to benefit themselves.

You may disagree but I don't really care what you think because you will always defend the guy in blue, even if it is at the cost of a war veteran just as you claim to be.

Haters gonna hate.

 

[PatriotPride]

@E5Ranger, you call the team murders let me ask you this. Apparently you are prior service and I'm guessing you spent some time in the box. Put yourself in a stack outside Hadji's house, you make entry and find the same situation, would you fire on the subject? Furthermore would you question the commanders intent, or Intel? My guess from my time as a soldier you would execute the command as given as long as it was lawful.

No disrespect, but you can't compare what happens in a warzone against enemy combatants to what the police/SWAT teams (civilians) do to other civilians. Apples and oranges, and a very telling look at the mentality of many police officers. If you want to play soldier and play with the dangerous toys, join the military. Keep that crap off our streets, which is a direct violation of Posse Comitatus.

 

[thompal]

I am not completely up to speed on the warrant issues. I see many things wrong with this encounter and everything leading up to the point where bullets started flying, including the way they entered, # of shots fired and the # of times this guy was hit.

BUT...you point a firearm at a cop, and they will shoot back. (You point one at me and I will shoot back also, as I'm sure you would as well) There is no way to tell if it is "on SAFE" in the heat of the moment. This nonsense about the weapon being on safe has to stop.

Yes, if a thug breaks into your house and points a firearm at you, you would undoubtedly shoot him in self defense.

Consider this though, if a criminal breaks into your house, and you point a firearm at HIM and he shoots you, has he shot you in self defense??

I hardly think so.

If anyone breaks into your house illegally, they are, by definition, a criminal. If you, as a homeowner, attempt to stop the criminal in the middle of his crime, he can't logically or legally claim self defense if he shoots you.

 

[PatriotPride]

So Ranger, because you have nothing else to say to me you are having every one of your friends post negative feedback for me? That's very mature of you. Pick fights, lose them, then just have all of your buddies hit negative feedback. Silencing those who you disagree with, hmmm that sounds very familiar.

I hit you with a glorious -1 because of the way you are acting. Take some responsibility.

Welcome back, Keyser Soze. That didn't take long at all. back to . Don't let the door hit you where the good Lord split you.

 

[E5RANGER375]

I hit you with a glorious -1 because of the way you are acting. Take some responsibility.

Welcome back, Keyser Soze. That didn't take long at all. back to . Don't let the door hit you where the good Lord split you.

yeah thats what im thinking too.

 

[PatriotPride]

Yes, if a thug breaks into your house and points a firearm at you, you would undoubtedly shoot him in self defense.

Consider this though, if a criminal breaks into your house, and you point a firearm at HIM and he shoots you, has he shot you in self defense??

I hardly think so.

If anyone breaks into your house illegally, they are, by definition, a criminal. If you, as a homeowner, attempt to stop the criminal in the middle of his crime, he can't logically or legally claim self defense if he shoots you.

+1. It really is absurd that there are those who would think any differently. I've personally grown tired of those that defend those who commit VIOLENT illegal acts against the population with impunity.

 

[Que]

dude what are you talking about? i havent asked anyone to neg rep you,. if your getting it you earned it. if i was pettitioning for you to get neg repped then trust me you would already have at least one red badge by now. Ive seen guys like you before on here. you think I dream about you or something. tomorrow I wont even remember our arguement or your username. thats how much I care. i get in disagreements here all the time. thats because i go balls out defending points I believe in and I try to convince others to jump on the wagon. sometimes I even change my mind and admit i was wrong on an issue because someone argued their point better than me. so instead of crying about a couple reps your getting and accusing me of trying to silence you, why dont you argue your point and try to add to the debate here?
also, you dont melt or shutdown once you receive a certain amount of neg rep. you can still post. so I fail to see how anyone neg repping you is silencing you? loosen up man. but if your having a high school flashback of being silenced by being stuffed in a locker then I cant help you there sorry.

This has got to be my new sig!