Let it fly.....SWAT cleared.

[KG1]

I see Red.

 

[E5RANGER375]

Okay, so that video did NOT show any sort of lack of proper identification. You can't hear what they are saying, and they are hardly going to show a search warrant to a guy with a gun. Nice try though.

As for name calling, I did no such thing. Hypocrite? If you take that as name-calling you have a serious problem. Childish? That's an adjective, not a noun, and therefore not name-calling. I was describing the nature of your post. Again, please go back and re-read what I said.

And again, I don't care what you believe or value.

are you gonna ask me to answer a riddle? when I was watching dora one time with my kid, there is this mean troll that lives under a bridge and he always ask dora to answer a riddle. i remember thinking ..... I wish I could answer a riddle one day to cross a bridge.

 

[jsharmon7]

you guys" as you say, is reffering to U.S> citizens, not serving as public servants. im not denigrating you, im just saying you have a lot to learn. i think you have been indoctrinated because of the environment your in daily. i was once with blinders on too, then i got out into the real world outside of the military and I saw a lot of things I had been led to believe were right, that I then saw were wrong. and my education continues till the day i die.

but i do believe .... no strike that. I KNOW that these academies are teaching new recruites its them against the world. until the bad training and indoctrination stops it will get worse before it gets better. and there are a lot more citizens than cops, so who do you think its gonna get worse for? exactly. fix it internally before the people have to.

I know that cops screw up and I know that some of them have an "us vs. them" mentality, but I can only control what I do. And yes, I've heard/read officers who have a very poor attitude but I don't let it rub off on me. I've never thought about it as "us vs. them." Maybe it's because I'm fortunate enough to work in a "podunk town" where I get to know people that I see the "us" as the honest people living and working in the area and the "them" as the people trying to break into their houses. I knew a guy who routinely carried a big .44 revolver into one of our businesses and said he carried it because he worried about the employees' safety. Good for him, that's one guy I don't have to worry about! You think I'm going to look at that guy and say he's one of "them" because he doesn't carry a badge? Do you really think that I don't see that guy as being on my side when things hit the fan? I really don't appreciate you assuming things about me when you've not even met me. I can guarantee you that I'm the guy you want to be dealing with should you ever be involved in something that gets the police called. I just don't like when people insinuate that I blindly stand up for cops because they are cops. If this had been a military raid gone wrong, I'd have said the EXACT same things that I've said in regard to this situation. If it had been a thread about firefighters causing someone's death then I would have given them the benefit of the doubt too. We very rarely get any threads about that kind of stuff though, only police stuff. I haven't followed the latest updates on this case but if the police intentionally lied about him firing at them then I disagree with them. I'm just not going to make the leap that lying (or misremembering, or whatever they say happened) about one thing translated to lying about everything or going so far as to say it justifies thinking that they planted a gun on him.

 

[PointFiveO]

I see Red.

Yeah well that's not hard when you just made your forum name. He has no logical response for me so he just tries to silence me. Trying to silence the voice of a free person, gee that really is within the ideals of his Oath.

 

[AZ Hunter]

Hope you choke on it.

was it grown in america?

Home grown..... Indiana style!

 

[jsharmon7]

Of course not. I'm not talking about conjecture at all... I'm referring to the fact that they changed their story initially claiming Mr. Guerena shot first, to acknowledging (only after evidence proved otherwise) that he actually did not fire at all. There was also a statement about discovering a stolen police uniform, which turned out to be a BP baseball cap, and even though the home was searched on warrant for "known drugs" and evidence of home invasions, they actually found neither. Then they found it necessary to speedily seal the warrant, but to disclose items they found when searching. Who needs speculation about planting weapons when the factual events and evidence are so much more damning?

Understood, but I wasn't arguing any of that. If you read back to my very first post in this thread you'll see I was responding to someone claiming they planted a rifle on Jose. I don't see any proof of that other than "they lied once so they must always lie." I'm sure somebody can ask me what my proof is that they DIDN'T plant a rifle on him. It just gets us right back to where we started.

 

[E5RANGER375]

I know that cops screw up and I know that some of them have an "us vs. them" mentality, but I can only control what I do. And yes, I've heard/read officers who have a very poor attitude but I don't let it rub off on me. I've never thought about it as "us vs. them." Maybe it's because I'm fortunate enough to work in a "podunk town" where I get to know people that I see the "us" as the honest people living and working in the area and the "them" as the people trying to break into their houses. I knew a guy who routinely carried a big .44 revolver into one of our businesses and said he carried it because he worried about the employees' safety. Good for him, that's one guy I don't have to worry about! You think I'm going to look at that guy and say he's one of "them" because he doesn't carry a badge? Do you really think that I don't see that guy as being on my side when things hit the fan? I really don't appreciate you assuming things about me when you've not even met me. I can guarantee you that I'm the guy you want to be dealing with should you ever be involved in something that gets the police called. I just don't like when people insinuate that I blindly stand up for cops because they are cops. If this had been a military raid gone wrong, I'd have said the EXACT same things that I've said in regard to this situation. If it had been a thread about firefighters causing someone's death then I would have given them the benefit of the doubt too. We very rarely get any threads about that kind of stuff though, only police stuff. I haven't followed the latest updates on this case but if the police intentionally lied about him firing at them then I disagree with them. I'm just not going to make the leap that lying (or misremembering, or whatever they say happened) about one thing translated to lying about everything or going so far as to say it justifies thinking that they planted a gun on him.

ive said before i think your a good cop. i have no beef with the way you do your job (as you have posted your ideals here) but I do think you are somewhat blinded because right now you live in a bubble of cops and cop thinking. maybe you became a cop at a young age so its really all you know besides college, where you probly took criminal justice. maybe im really wrong. either way, all I post about is my own experiences and perceptions. Its not just me thinking the dtuff I am. millions of others are too and cops around the country are losing support. thats not just a coincidence or unfair. like I posted in another thread ... Its very sad when HONEST, non criminal citizens are afraid of the police. I have NO record, I have had some of the highest security clearances you can get (so im not a mental patient or a terrorist), I havent been arrested, I have a very good driving record, I didnt try to be a cop and was rejected (so im not bitter), but YES, I am afraid of the police! because I do not trust that if I have to interact with one that I will get a good one like you. im afraid i will get barney fife or roid'n randy, who wants to prove how tough he is and it might not end well for either of us.

 

[FCSD 23-18]

Of course not. I'm not talking about conjecture at all... I'm referring to the fact that they changed their story initially claiming Mr. Guerena shot first, to acknowledging (only after evidence proved otherwise) that he actually did not fire at all. There was also a statement about discovering a stolen police uniform, which turned out to be a BP baseball cap, and even though the home was searched on warrant for "known drugs" and evidence of home invasions, they actually found neither. Then they found it necessary to speedily seal the warrant, but to disclose items they found when searching. Who needs speculation about planting weapons when the factual events and evidence are so much more damning?

Jet Girl, I do see how you would think that they changed their statement to support the facts after the fact. But in reality the issue of rather he was shooting back or not was a simple mistake. One of the entry officers hit the door frame with one of his shots causing it to splinter over the team. In a fire fight (yes I have been there) I can understand how this event could lead the officers to initially think that they were being shot at. Honestly none of that matters in this case, the team did not use deadly force because they thought he was shooting at them, they used deadly force because they had a rifle pointed at the. It descent matter what condition the rifle was found to be in, or what manner it was being pointed at them.

@E5Ranger, you call the team murders let me ask you this. Apparently you are prior service and I'm guessing you spent some time in the box. Put yourself in a stack outside Hadji's house, you make entry and find the same situation, would you fire on the subject? Furthermore would you question the commanders intent, or Intel? My guess from my time as a soldier you would execute the command as given as long as it was lawful.

I enjoy discussing these issues with you guys, and I understand your dis-trust of those of US that wear a badge. I just ask that you put yourself in our shoes before commenting and think about what you would do.

Now about the number of rounds that were discharged, we are taught to shoot until the threat is eliminated. Some say that the teams actions were an excessive use of force, the only shot that was fired which could be reviewed for excessive use of force in this case was the first one. If the first officer was justified in pulling the trigger, the rest of them are justified as well. Dead is Dead, there are no greater or lessor states of being dead. You do not shoot to kill or wound, you shoot to eliminate the threat before you.

 

[KG1]

I think they planted the Border Patrol hat.

 

[FCSD 23-18]

I think they planted the Border Patrol hat.

As stupid as the hat issue is, if it was an official BP hat and was not issued to the guy it is still stolen property no matter how he got it. That in and of itself is not reason for what happened, it is just work product of the search warrant.

 

[KG1]

Now about the number of rounds that were discharged, we are taught to shoot until the threat is eliminated. Some say that the teams actions were an excessive use of force, the only shot that was fired which could be reviewed for excessive use of force in this case was the first one. If the first officer was justified in pulling the trigger, the rest of them are justified as well. Dead is Dead, there are no greater or lessor states of being dead. You do not shoot to kill or wound, you shoot to eliminate the threat before you.

Now in the video at the end of the melee when a Swat team member runs up with his sidearm and reaches over the other team members thru the door and comences to empty his magazine would that be considered to be justified because everybody else was doing it and he was'nt the first one to fire? Or would that be pileing on at that point?

 

[USMC_0311]

I will stop saying they planted the weapon if you all stop saying he pointed it.

Show me the video.

 

[USMC_0311]

Now in the video at the end of the melee when a Swat team member runs up with his sidearm and reaches over the other team members thru the door and comences to empty his magazine would that be considered to be justified because everybody else was doing it and he was'nt the first one to fire? Or would that be pileing on at that point?

Those are "me too" shots.

 

[E5RANGER375]

@E5Ranger, you call the team murders let me ask you this. Apparently you are prior service and I'm guessing you spent some time in the box. Put yourself in a stack outside Hadji's house, you make entry and find the same situation, would you fire on the subject? Furthermore would you question the commanders intent, or Intel? My guess from my time as a soldier you would execute the command as given as long as it was lawful.

I enjoy discussing these issues with you guys, and I understand your dis-trust of those of US that wear a badge. I just ask that you put yourself in our shoes before commenting and think about what you would do.

Now about the number of rounds that were discharged, we are taught to shoot until the threat is eliminated. Some say that the teams actions were an excessive use of force, the only shot that was fired which could be reviewed for excessive use of force in this case was the first one. If the first officer was justified in pulling the trigger, the rest of them are justified as well. Dead is Dead, there are no greater or lessor states of being dead. You do not shoot to kill or wound, you shoot to eliminate the threat before you.

actually i have cleared many structures and didnt always engage everyone with a weapon. people are allowed to have weapons in the sand box too. my main concern during a cqb op is their intent towards my team. them holding a weapon alone does not sign the check even in combat. police have to be even more careful and sure before pulling the trigger. especially when your entering someone elses home.
but I worked with professionals, not ass clowns like you saw in that video.

 

[E5RANGER375]

Those are "me too" shots.

EXACTLY!! that is exactly what that is and nothing more. total disregard for anyone's safety. Im VERY glad that more people were not killed here, but with the spray and pray tactics we see here, I almost wish that they would have shot one of his neighbors too with some of the stray rounds. then maybe some of these guys would serve jail time. still wishful thinking though probly.

 

[FCSD 23-18]

Now in the video at the end of the melee when a Swat team member runs up with his sidearm and reaches over the other team members thru the door and comences to empty his magazine would that be considered to be justified because everybody else was doing it and he wasn't the first one to fire? Or would that be pileing on at that point?

Just to be sure of what I am about to say I reviewed the video. The Officer you described was a member of the stack who was in the process of rejoining the stack after the breach. When the shooting starts he is rejoining the team, then he steps to the left to use the house for cover. Upon reaching the stack he fires several shots at the subject. I saw nothing that could be considered an unprofessional act on his part.


Link to video: <iframe width="560" height="349" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/XP0f00_JMak" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[ckcollins2003]

I read all of these posts from officers asking us to "put ourselves in the shoes of the SWAT team."

Okay, now put yourself in the shoes of the U.S. Marine who is sleeping and hears someone breaking into his house without properly identifying themselves. Picture you grabbing your weapon to defend your family from harm, then seeing bullets come at you.

Put yourself in his shoes as well. How would you react to someone breaching your door with a weapon when you have no idea it's coming?

 

[ckcollins2003]

Just to be sure of what I am about to say I reviewed the video. The Officer you described was a member of the stack who was in the process of rejoining the stack after the breach. When the shooting starts he is rejoining the team, then he steps to the left to use the house for cover. Upon reaching the stack he fires several shots at the subject. I saw nothing that could be considered an unprofessional act on his part.


Link to video: <iframe width="560" height="349" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/XP0f00_JMak" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

So you guys don't say anything like, "He's down" or "Threat eliminated" or anything like that to indicate to the rest of the team to stop shooting?

I sure as hell don't want to be an innocent by-standard at any type of situation that you are at if that's how you do your job. By firing more than what is necessary to eliminate the threat you are simply putting others at risk. Innocent people. Remember, bullets go through walls and they fragment off of solid surfaces.

I'd say shooting a single person more than 60 times is more than excessive. Even if the first few are justified, there's no need to have an entire team go one after another shooting the person. That's simply desecration of human remains.

 

[FCSD 23-18]

I read all of these posts from officers asking us to "put ourselves in the shoes of the SWAT team."

Okay, now put yourself in the shoes of the U.S. Marine who is sleeping and hears someone breaking into his house without properly identifying themselves. Picture you grabbing your weapon to defend your family from harm, then seeing bullets come at you.

Put yourself in his shoes as well. How would you react to someone breaching your door with a weapon when you have no idea it's coming?

Ok so I'm sleeping on my couch, I wake up to police sirens right outside my house, my wife saying there are men with guns outside, and there is someone beating on my door yelling "SHERIFFS DEPARTMENT SEARCH WARRANT" over and over again. I can tell you what I'm not going to do and that is grab my AR 15 and take up a defensive position while yelling Ive got something for you. Oh and I can guarantee you that I'm not going to point my weapon at an entry team as they kick in my door. When was the last time there was a home invasion by thugs that used a police siren, yelled search warrant while beating on the door, and used an entry team.

Come on man, if it is a big red truck with hoses and ladders hanging off of it and a Dalmatian in the passenger seat its a firetruck!!

 

[PointFiveO]

Now in the video at the end of the melee when a Swat team member runs up with his sidearm and reaches over the other team members thru the door and comences to empty his magazine would that be considered to be justified because everybody else was doing it and he was'nt the first one to fire? Or would that be pileing on at that point?

Agreed.

Just to be sure of what I am about to say I reviewed the video. The Officer you described was a member of the stack who was in the process of rejoining the stack after the breach. When the shooting starts he is rejoining the team, then he steps to the left to use the house for cover. Upon reaching the stack he fires several shots at the subject. I saw nothing that could be considered an unprofessional act on his part.

He ran back to the door, threw his arm over three men and proceeded to empty a magazine one-handed. I don't see anything professional about that to be honest. But I was not there, I can't see in that hallway, so honestly I can't judge his actions any better than the rest of us.