Larry Vickers shuns the Serpa..

[MilitaryArms]

This was clearly a training issue.

Your post is the result of faulty training.

 

[geronimojoe85]

I've never been trained on how to train.

 

[Cwood]

Your post is the result of faulty training.

I've never been trained on how to train.

Double FAIL!

 

[geronimojoe85]

I just show up to classes with my puppy dog hi-point, drooling with bullets in my nostrils.

(on a side note, I knew a guy that used to stick junk in his nose. Coins, lighters, and on a few occasions the back end of a .50 round.)

 

[geronimojoe85]

I think it comes down to this.
Some things such as AD/NDs can be attributed to poor training or lack there of.
But it IS a flawed design when one piece breaks and your gun sticks.

 

[Paco Bedejo]

Here's an example with snow.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htigDRr7tdM

That is what you guys have been ranting about? That is an obvious drawback to the design (every design has at least one). I thought there was something less obvious which would affect EDC. Obviously if you're packing mud into every orifice available, a holster with passive retention might give you issues. I suppose if you're worried about such things, your only logical retention choice is a snap closure...but that doesn't exactly keep wandering hands from gaining fast access, does it?

Unless I see proof that the leaf spring failure can cause it to hopelessly jam & that the design is prone to such a failure under normal usage, SERPA is still on my list of considerations for a Gen 4 Glock 20 holster for OC.

 

[cosermann]

A few related threads just for more fun:

The Serpa Holster - Why We Don't Allow Them In Class
Again On The Serpa
Review: Blackhawk SERPA leg holster

 

[MilitaryArms]

That is what you guys have been ranting about? That is an obvious drawback to the design (every design has at least one). I thought there was something less obvious which would affect EDC. Obviously if you're packing mud into every orifice available, a holster with passive retention might give you issues. I suppose if you're worried about such things, your only logical retention choice is a snap closure...but that doesn't exactly keep wandering hands from gaining fast access, does it?

If that's what you think we're "ranting" about, you haven't been following very closely.

But yes, that's a major issue for people that might wind up in a struggle with someone else, which inevitably will go to the ground. While you might not place much importance on such things, many people do.

You asked for an example claiming that you couldn't imagine how a latch on a fulcrum could become fouled. I showed you. Now you want to pretend that since it does happen, it's really not that big of a deal and we're all just "ranting".

 

[esrice]

Unless I see proof that the leaf spring failure can cause it to hopelessly jam & that the design is prone to such a failure under normal usage, SERPA is still on my list of considerations for a Gen 4 Glock 20 holster for OC.

If your "normal" usage is shooting at paper targets on a square range than the SERPA will probably work just fine for you.

 

[HICKMAN]

What about those cases where FoF students were wrestled to the ground and had their Serpa mechanisms fail, leaving their handguns cemented inside their holsters?

hey! stop trying to use facts and logic!!

 

[Shay]

It's all a training issue!

This thread has changed my mind about the Serpa. How could I have been so wrong for so long???

 

[jeremy]

I can't give you photo or video, but I can give you my word that it happened to me. Not a friend told me, or I heard it through the grapevine, but my gun got locked into the holster and had to be cut out.

Hell even I have not been able to break a Serpa yet...

 

[jeremy]

What about those cases where FoF students were wrestled to the ground and had their Serpa mechanisms fail, leaving their handguns cemented inside their holsters?

Personally if you are being wrestled to the Ground, in my humble opinion at least, you should not be even trying to use a Firearm. That is time for Hands on, or maybe a Knife.

 

[esrice]

Personally if you are being wrestled to the Ground, in my humble opinion at least, you should not be even trying to use a Firearm. That is time for Hands on, or maybe a Knife.

But you're assuming that you'd access it right at that moment. What if you needed your gun 5 minutes after you went face-first into the dirt, and it locked up your most powerful means of self-defense?

 

[jeremy]

But you're assuming that you'd access it right at that moment. What if you needed your gun 5 minutes after you went face-first into the dirt, and it locked up your most powerful means of self-defense?

I have used a Serpa in LOTS of training and real life scenarios with never a problem. So I do not honestly know.

I train and use my Equipment Harder in training than I do in real life to try to eliminate those type of pucker moment...

 

[Shay]

Personally if you are being wrestled to the Ground, in my humble opinion at least, you should not be even trying to use a Firearm. That is time for Hands on, or maybe a Knife.

This assumes that you are on the ground because someone is wrestling with you at the time. Might you have tripped while backing up? Maybe you got hit with an impact weapon and it knocked you down? Maybe your empty hand or knife skills beat the guy you are ground fighting with, but you have another attacker 15 feet away that also needs to be dealt with?

You can't predict how you will end up on the ground and that you won't need a pistol while you are there.

 

[jeremy]

This assumes that you are on the ground because someone is wrestling with you at the time. Might you have tripped while backing up? Maybe you got hit with an impact weapon and it knocked you down? Maybe your empty hand or knife skills beat the guy you are ground fighting with, but you have another attacker 15 feet away that also needs to be dealt with?

You can't predict how you will end up on the ground and that you won't need a pistol while you are there.

Uhhh...

I was using the Scenerio that Evan (Quoted below) threw out as a basis for the Answer that you quoted...

What about those cases where FoF students were wrestled to the ground and had their Serpa mechanisms fail, leaving their handguns cemented inside their holsters?

As I answered Evan later in the Thread I have never had my Serpa fail me. in Years of training and Real World usage?!

 

[esrice]

I have used a Serpa in LOTS of training and real life scenarios with never a problem.

And I do believe this. I also believe that you have much more direct training and time with a SERPA than I or most people reading this.

But that doesn't negate the fact that some other people's experiences have been different, and that it was directly linked to the poor design of the holster and its locking mechanism, which this thread is highlighting.

 

[Paco Bedejo]

And I do believe this. I also believe that you have much more direct training and time with a SERPA than I or most people reading this.

But that doesn't negate the fact that some other people's experiences have been different, and that it was directly linked to the poor design of the holster and its locking mechanism, which this thread is highlighting.

You call it a poor design...I view it as a good design with a particular weakness for those who frequently become soiled. All holsters have weak points. If you're afraid of stuff getting jammed behind the lever, then find another type of holster which doesn't have that issue.

Like I said, though, if the spring itself breaks too-frequently under normal conditions, jamming the locking mechanism, that's a problem they need to fix.

 

[esrice]

If you're afraid of stuff getting jammed behind the lever, then find another type of holster which doesn't have that issue.

Agreed.

Like I said, though, if the spring itself breaks too-frequently under normal conditions, jamming the locking mechanism, that's a problem they need to fix.

I also agree that people's definition of "normal conditions" does vary, and that the SERPA could (and does) work for some people.