Larry Vickers shuns the Serpa..

[jeremy]

And I do believe this. I also believe that you have much more direct training and time with a SERPA than I or most people reading this.

But that doesn't negate the fact that some other people's experiences have been different, and that it was directly linked to the poor design of the holster and its locking mechanism, which this thread is highlighting.

Not arguing those points though am I...

For my needs, the Serpa on a thigh rig is the most useful and comfortable currently out there. When a better one comes out I will try it out in training and evaluate it, and then maybe use it as part of My Kit.

 

[jgreiner]

Agreed, leather holsters & common sources of moisture like perspiration or precipitation generally equals a lot more care & attention required to keep the weapon from spotting up w/rust.



Agreed, I've cracked a couple kydex holsters (not my Serpa, at least not yet) myself, had I been wearing one of my leather holsters they'd probably had just gotten a couple of "character" scrapes/scratches on them.

I haven't found the perfect holster yet, I've got a huge drawer full of them from trying to find the perfect one though.

I have a model on order from El Paso Saddlery......along with a good belt. I am curious to see what the quality will be like. I went with them because they are one of the few that will make a holster for the S&W MP Pro with the 5" barrel. Most only make em for the 4.25" barrel, and I don't want my fiber optic site hanging out unprotected.

 

[Gamez235]

I'll leave it to you to find out who and what holster...

Shooting instructor wounded during training in Green - News - Ohio

This was in a thread on another board talking about the Serpa.

 

[WillyUSMC]

I've carried a serpa daily for almost 3 years now, and I have to say it has been nothing but good to me. For a retention holster at a ow price I feel like its hard to beat for my needs (I realize mine and everyones else' may be different). It's not perfect but I like it a lot especially for the money I paid. I am a firm believer in the 1 gun 1 holster theory, that is not have a different gun and/or holster for every day of the week. Durability has definately not been an issue, I've even had someone try to disarm me in a scuffle and for the brief second he grabbed the butt of my weapon he give a good wrenching until I was able to "assist" him away from my weapon. IMO it's a lot about training and handling.

 

[WillyUSMC]

You call it a poor design...I view it as a good design with a particular weakness for those who frequently become soiled.

I guess I'll just try not to soil myself when I use my SERPA and hopefully it will continue to be ok.......Paco I'm really sorry I just couldn't help myself.

 

[irishfan]

Well, of course. You don't see parents of special needs children running out & buying pointy scissors & machetes for their child's classes, do you? The difference here is that only some of Vicker's students are special, yet he's treating them all the same, likely because of his insurance company.

When I switch from my XDm to a Gen4 Glock 20, I'll be buying both a MTAC for work & a Serpa for OC on the weekends. I won't carry OC w/out some active retention & I don't like the thumb-levers. For me, the Serpa will be fine because my finger would hit the front of the trigger guard (by 1/4"+) even if I screw up the draw.

It could be as simple as human error when installing the retention device. Also, it could be a bad spring in every so many holsters that causes the problem. If you feel comfortable with it then go for it However, if I were in a situation where dirt, sand, or gravel could get into a locking mechanism then I would be cautious. That is just being practical for me but if you are only open carrying on you in the civilian world then you won't have much of that.

 

[thebishopp]

I've had a serpa for my xd40 since (I think 05). I have never had a problem with it and have worn it quite often for ccw and while at the range (draw and fire). In fact I still use it occasionally when I carry the xd (though I've switched to a taurus 2inch 357 in a fobus paddle for everyday carry now).

If I had to nitpick I would say the "paddle" part feels a little flimsy (and I say "feels" because it has not broken yet) but it is by far the most comfortable plastic paddle I've worn (and I've yet to shoot myself drawing it out).

 

[jeremy]

It could be as simple as human error when installing the retention device. Also, it could be a bad spring in every so many holsters that causes the problem. If you feel comfortable with it then go for it However, if I were in a situation where dirt, sand, or gravel could get into a locking mechanism then I would be cautious. That is just being practical for me but if you are only open carrying on you in the civilian world then you won't have much of that.

Huh...

I have been using a Serpa for almost a Decade now. Without any of these problems that are supposed to be so Dangerous...

That equates to 5 Combat Tours in the Suck by the Way. Apparently I am insanely lucky...

 

[rhino]

I'm still unclear on the concept of a holster with an active retention device that is mounted on a paddle so it's easy to slide on and off.

 

[Fargo]

I'm still unclear on the concept of a holster with an active retention device that is mounted on a paddle so it's easy to slide on and off.

Actually, the 3 hooks on the paddle/holster make it something of a PITA to get off IF you are wearing a proper belt of reasonable tightness. It certainly isn't impossible, but it isn't like pulling a fobus off. I wear a wilderness tactical instructor belt most of the time and unless you loosen it and pry the hooks free, it sticks pretty good.

I actually think you are more likely to break the paddle off than have it come out of your waistband; I've never understood the paddle design on Serpas which appears to be designed damn near as weakly as possible. Then again, I've never broken one so maybe they are stronger than they appear.

Best,

Joe

 

[WillyUSMC]

I'm still unclear on the concept of a holster with an active retention device that is mounted on a paddle so it's easy to slide on and off.

I know there are some of what I believe they refer to as "sport" models, but mine came with a paddle and a belt loop attachment, so you have the option to carry with either.

 

[MilitaryArms]

Chris Cerino, who I would say is a respected LEO firearms instructor and even appeared on Top Shot (not that this qualifies someone as an expert). He had an AD with the SERPA which resulted in a wound quite similar in nature to the one Tex had.

Here's what he had to say about it:

When you engage in dangerous activities sometimes you get hurt. I didn't hurt anyone but myself. It was a learning experience.
I was using a new holster (serpa) which requires me to use my trigger finger to unlock the retention device.

When the button didn't work I pushed and pulled harder. Look at what your fingers do when you grip something harder and pull harder.
The trigger finger slipped into the trigger guard and carried on thru the trigger. I shot myself high in the front of my pelvis and down my leg.

The picture of his wound:

So we have a relatively inexperienced shooter having nearly the same experience (flubbing the draw, pushing harder, finger drops to trigger, gun discharges) as a highly trained and respected firearms instructor.

 

[jeremy]

Huh...

My take away from both of these...
Train more with your equipment...

 

[MilitaryArms]

Or buy better equipment that doesn't have an inherent design flaw that increases the chances of an AD while under stress.

 

[jeremy]

Or buy better equipment that doesn't have an inherent design flaw that increases the chances of an AD while under stress.

Huh...

I have heard the same thing said of many firearms that are used today...

Anyone remember the Glock discussions of the 80's...

 

[MilitaryArms]

There's a difference.

The Glock doesn't force you to put your finger on the trigger. The SERPA does for many people if you flub the draw. As I've shown, even highly experienced operators have had the exact same problem. I'm sure it has to do with the differences in body mechanics as well as the SERPA requiring you to push towards the trigger with your trigger finger to release it from retention.

No holster should require you to push your trigger finger towards the trigger to release it from the holster. That's like putting a brake on a gas peddle then insisting it isn't a design flaw when users start having accidents.

 

[jeremy]

There's a difference.

The Glock doesn't force you to put your finger on the trigger. The SERPA does for many people if you flub the draw. As I've shown, even highly experienced operators have had the exact same problem. I'm sure it has to do with the differences in body mechanics as well as the SERPA requiring you to push towards the trigger with your trigger finger to release it from retention.

The quote from a couple of posts up explains the entire incident to me...
Learn to use your equipment...

When you engage in dangerous activities sometimes you get hurt. I didn't hurt anyone but myself. It was a learning experience.
I was using a new holster (serpa) which requires me to use my trigger finger to unlock the retention device.

When the button didn't work I pushed and pulled harder. Look at what your fingers do when you grip something harder and pull harder.
The trigger finger slipped into the trigger guard and carried on thru the trigger. I shot myself high in the front of my pelvis and down my leg.

No holster should require you to push your trigger finger towards the trigger to release it from the holster. That's like putting a brake on a gas peddle then insisting it isn't a design flaw when users start having accidents.

It does not require you to push your index finger towards the trigger to release the firearm for the Serpa.

By your own reasoning there should be literally thousands upon thousands of us with ND's into our own legs....

Train more and quit blaming ones inabilities to utilize there equipment on poor excuses...

 

[MilitaryArms]

It does not require you to push your index finger towards the trigger to release the firearm for the Serpa.

I don't even know how to respond to a comment like this. If you really believe this, there really isn't much point in having a discussion with you on the subject.

By your own reasoning there should be literally thousands upon thousands of us with ND's into our own legs....

If you read what I've said more carefully, you would realize there are conditions to be met for the AD to happen, and not all people have them, however an alarming number do.

But you're not being objective at this point.

 

[jeremy]

It does not require you to push your index finger towards the trigger to release the firearm for the Serpa.

I don't even know how to respond to a comment like this. If you really believe this, there really isn't much point in having a discussion with you on the subject.

Exactly how I feel when talking to several of you as well...
What is not to understand that. Yes your index finger actuates the Button/Lever. As you lift your weapon from the Holster your index finger should still be pushing on the button. As you clear the Holster your finger then trails up the Holster indexing on the frame.

If you read what I've said more carefully, you would realize there are conditions to be met for the AD to happen, and not all people have them, however an alarming number do.

An even larger number of ND's come from People cleaning their Firearms...
Or from just holstering their Pistols, in a worn, or poorly sized holster...

But since the Media, and a Few high profile Training Companies have decided they are evil Black Holsters everyone is jumping on the Band Wagon...

But you're not being objective at this point.

You feel I am not Objective, I feel you are an alarmist...

 

[Fargo]

Chris Cerino, who I would say is a respected LEO firearms instructor and even appeared on Top Shot (not that this qualifies someone as an expert). He had an AD with the SERPA which resulted in a wound quite similar in nature to the one Tex had.

Here's what he had to say about it:



The picture of his wound:

So we have a relatively inexperienced shooter having nearly the same experience (flubbing the draw, pushing harder, finger drops to trigger, gun discharges) as a highly trained and respected firearms instructor.

Ah, so another guy by his own admission fumbles a quick draw with a loaded weapon in a holster he hasn't familiarized himself with yet and manages to shoot himself....


But that's an equipment problem, not a training problem.

I don't care how experienced you are, anytime you start using new gear you need to figure out how to use it. But then again, I suppose I'm not objective either...


Joe