June 2nd, IDPA, Red Brush Rifle Range

[sbcman]

I did not that. What reflex makes a straight finger press the trigger? IMO a curled finger would want to naturally rest on the trigger, but that might just be how I work.

In Mas' words:


"Rule III should be interpreted as, “never let your finger be in the trigger guard UNLESS YOU ARE IN THE VERY ACT OF INTENTIONALLY FIRING THE WEAPON.” However, if the finger is kept straight on the front of the trigger guard, it can be held taut, setting the stage for it to snap back against the trigger with enough impact to discharge the gun if the shooter is startled. The same is also possible with the finger straight along the frame. I’ve personally come to believe that the safest position is with the trigger finger crooked, and its tip resting on the frame above the trigger area. This way, even if the hand is somehow caused to convulse and the index finger snaps into the guard, it comes across the trigger instead of straight back into it, greatly reducing the likelihood of an accidental discharge. In all my decades of shooting and teaching and researching gun matters, I’ve never found a case of an accidental discharge when the gun was held in this manner."

Again, I personally use a straight finger method, but I listen when guys like Ayoob, who have literally decades of real-life gun encounters/fights speak. Of course, obviously the straight finger method works as well, ala 4x4

If anyone is REEALLLY interested in this, you can watch this rather painful video. The only thing that makes it tolerable is that guy uses two Smiths to present his point.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awbSrBZwtok[/ame]


Coming back to topic though, IDPA shooters must make sure their trigger finger is out of the trigger guard during reloads or moving/not shooting. There is no IDPA specified way to do this whether straight or curled- SOs should be happy so long as the trigger finger is clear of the guard.

 

[Titanium_Frost]

I have never heard of let alone experienced a finger jerk reaction like that before. I tend to keep my finger straight and above the triggerguard but below the slide. Works really well with 1911's because they have the slide stop through the frame and it makes for a great reference point.

Taurus/Beretta 92s have a ridiculously wide slide compared to frame width and it makes it easy to tuck your finger up there as well.

 

[DustyDawg48]

Again, I personally use a straight finger method, but I listen when guys like Ayoob, who have literally decades of real-life gun encounters/fights speak. Of course, obviously the straight finger method works as well, ala 4x4


Coming back to topic though, IDPA shooters must make sure their trigger finger is out of the trigger guard during reloads or moving/not shooting. There is no IDPA specified way to do this whether straight or curled- SOs should be happy so long as the trigger finger is clear of the guard.

Again, I am always glad to put on a gun-handling clinic; even an impromptu one !

If Ayoob wants to hold is finger like that, I'm not going to argue with him LOL but I do think there can get to a point where you almost engineer yourself out of a gunfight so to speak. There is the guy that absolutely advocates racking the slide after a reload no matter when or what type of reload. He says it insures you have a round at the ready no matter what. Good thinking but you are kind of wasting ammo and could possibly get a double-feed if you aren't careful. You never want to say that you actually can be overly safe but I think you can put in steps that may not be necessary or motions that may not be necessary when just proper practice with proper technique might be the answer.

I think it just falls back on finding a way that you are comfortable doing it and practice doing it a lot!

 

[sbcman]

Again, I am always glad to put on a gun-handling clinic; even an impromptu one !

If Ayoob wants to hold is finger like that, I'm not going to argue with him LOL but I do think there can get to a point where you almost engineer yourself out of a gunfight so to speak. There is the guy that absolutely advocates racking the slide after a reload no matter when or what type of reload. He says it insures you have a round at the ready no matter what. Good thinking but you are kind of wasting ammo and could possibly get a double-feed if you aren't careful. You never want to say that you actually can be overly safe but I think you can put in steps that may not be necessary or motions that may not be necessary when just proper practice with proper technique might be the answer.

I think it just falls back on finding a way that you are comfortable doing it and practice doing it a lot!

I don't think I've said this- and I think I speak for the whole squad- but we really appreciated that partiularly clinic. Set the mood right for the whole day

I agree with you on the fewer steps business. Such as safeties. Have you noticed how many guys with 1911s hear the buzzer sound, draw, pull trigger, flinch and then realize they didn't take the safety off. Seriously, why does anyone want an external safety on their gun....any ideas, Mike

 

[DustyDawg48]

I don't think I've said this- and I think I speak for the whole squad- but we really appreciated that partiularly clinic. Set the mood right for the whole day

I agree with you on the fewer steps business. Such as safeties. Have you noticed how many guys with 1911s hear the buzzer sound, draw, pull trigger, flinch and then realize they didn't take the safety off. Seriously, why does anyone want an external safety on their gun....any ideas, Mike

And I don't know if I said it but I did sincerely appreciate the get-well cards and letters from you all; the flowers were very pretty and a very nice touch as well!

I would have no idea why anyone would want a thumb safety on any weapon...especially a plastic gun! What on God's Green Earth were they thinking?

 

[Titanium_Frost]

I don't think I've said this- and I think I speak for the whole squad- but we really appreciated that partiularly clinic. Set the mood right for the whole day

I agree with you on the fewer steps business. Such as safeties. Have you noticed how many guys with 1911s hear the buzzer sound, draw, pull trigger, flinch and then realize they didn't take the safety off. Seriously, why does anyone want an external safety on their gun....any ideas, Mike

I have NEVER flinched from not releasing my safety thank-you-very-much...

And I don't know if I said it but I did sincerely appreciate the get-well cards and letters from you all; the flowers were very pretty and a very nice touch as well!

I would have no idea why anyone would want a thumb safety on any weapon...especially a plastic gun! What on God's Green Earth were they thinking?

You don't have a thumb safety you have a thumb rest

 

[DustyDawg48]

You don't have a thumb safety you have a thumb rest

Exactly! +1

 

[sbcman]

I have NEVER flinched from not releasing my safety thank-you-very-much...



You don't have a thumb safety you have a thumb rest

I wasn't talking about you, but HAHA! Shows how much I know about bottom feeders! I didn't even know the Taurus/Beretta had an external safety

Learned something new today: check

My M&P22 trainer has an external safety and I hate it (plus all the other ridiculous mag disconnect stuff. I've been tempted to file it down as I can't find a way to completely take it off. Thankfully my M&P9 has none such features.

I'll go back to my wheelgun world now

ETA: Wait- just realized you were talking about your 1911. I know you have ran it but I can't remember seeing you shoot it. Surely I'm not the only one that has seen that safety-on business go down at the buzzer.

 

[Grelber]

Have you noticed how many guys with 1911s hear the buzzer sound, draw, pull trigger, flinch and then realize they didn't take the safety off. Seriously, why does anyone want an external safety on their gun....any ideas,

Kind of a neat built in segue from answer to question, you have a talent for this internet stuff!!

When I was young and the earth was still cooling part of the rational went likea dis.

A certain percentage of people get shot with their own weapon, with a wheel gun , bang it is over, with a 1911 the bad guy has to know have the knowledge and instincts to use the safety or take time to figure it out.

 

[sbcman]

Kind of a neat built in segue from answer to question, you have a talent for this internet stuff!!

When I was young and the earth was still cooling part of the rational went likea dis.

A certain percentage of people get shot with their own weapon, with a wheel gun , bang it is over, with a 1911 the bad guy has to know have the knowledge and instincts to use the safety or take time to figure it out.

Understandable and that's why I carry Smith revolvers. Should my weapon be taken, the assailant would stand in awe of such fine craftsmanship that I should have a few seconds to get it back or else clamp down on the cylinder

 

[DustyDawg48]

I like the saying about being killed by your own weapon better involve being beaten by it since you should be out of ammo if it's taken from you

 

[Grelber]

Understandable and that's why I carry Smith revolvers. Should my weapon be taken, the assailant would stand in awe of such fine craftsmanship that I should have a few seconds to get it back or else clamp down on the cylinder

I don't have a revolver () laying around to test, can you really stop the cylinder if somebody is determined to pull the trigger?

On another note my 1911 STI () slidestop just arrived.

 

[Titanium_Frost]

My Taurus has a thumb safety too, that's why I shoot in ESP

Berettas have a decocker/safety and cannot be carried 'cocked and locked.'

(Except for the very first 92 model which the Taurus is based on)

 

[sbcman]

I like the saying about being killed by your own weapon better involve being beaten by it since you should be out of ammo if it's taken from you

I don't have a revolver () laying around to test, can you really stop the cylinder if somebody is determined to pull the trigger?

On another note my 1911 STI () slidestop just arrived.

To stopping the trigger by grabbing hold of the cylinder- it sure will no matter how determined someone is to pull that trigger. The mechanics involved in giving a revolver trigger system a mechanical advantage to make the trigger tolerable work opposite to any resistance. Just grab the cylinder firmly over the topstrap and that trigger will not be pulled.

Here's another peice of revolver trivia- most any revolver can shoot faster than most any semi.

Glad to hear the STI will be back up and running soon

My Taurus has a thumb safety too, that's why I shoot in ESP

Berettas have a decocker/safety and cannot be carried 'cocked and locked.'

(Except for the very first 92 model which the Taurus is based on)

Interesting- I guess I just never have taken a good look at the Taurus. I've never seen a Beretta that had one, so I just assumed the Taurus didn't either. Yep- just google imaged the 92 and saw one with the external safety. Good to know.

 

[Grelber]

My Taurus has a thumb safety too, that's why I shoot in ESP

Berettas have a decocker/safety and cannot be carried 'cocked and locked.'

(Except for the very first 92 model which the Taurus is based on)

Reminds me.

Please pound something into my head folks.

With double-single action guns, does the first shot after drawing from a holster always need to be double action, never need to be da, or sometimes need to be da depending on which specific da-sa gun we are talking about?

 

[DustyDawg48]

I believe the DA/SA guns will almost always be in DA mode when drawn. The rules say that the gun must be made to be in it's mechanical condition of readiness with hammer down or cocked and locked or however the gun would be carried and the safety devices in the 'on' position. I'm guessing that if you wanted to, you could actually thumb the hammer back into the SA position but I don't think you'd actually pick up any time on that.

 

[Titanium_Frost]

Reminds me.

Please pound something into my head folks.

With double-single action guns, does the first shot after drawing from a holster always need to be double action, never need to be da, or sometimes need to be da depending on which specific da-sa gun we are talking about?

I believe the DA/SA guns will almost always be in DA mode when drawn. The rules say that the gun must be made to be in it's mechanical condition of readiness with hammer down or cocked and locked or however the gun would be carried and the safety devices in the 'on' position. I'm guessing that if you wanted to, you could actually thumb the hammer back into the SA position but I don't think you'd actually pick up any time on that.

DA/SA guns are typically in SSP and do not require use of any external safety even if one is present.

SAO guns or even DA/SA that can be 'cocked and locked' are going to be in ESP if shot from SA mode and you must use an external safety.

Those Glock bastardized actions are 'safe-action' and fall into whatever catagory you want them to be in.

 

[Grelber]

DA/SA guns are typically in SSP and do not require use of any external safety even if one is present.

SAO guns or even DA/SA that can be 'cocked and locked' are going to be in ESP if shot from SA mode and you must use an external safety.

Those Glock bastardized actions are 'safe-action' and fall into whatever catagory you want them to be in.

Hmmm.

So I've got a SigP229, it has a de-cocker () but no external 'safety'.
Normal carry would be hammer down.

It would give me a competitive advantage to leave the hammer back after chambering a round so that my first round fired would be with a single action 1911 ish trigger pull. This wouldn't matter to TJ but it is significant for mere mortals.

To my reckoning starting with hammer back on this gun would violate the spirit of "mechanical condition of readiness appropriate to their design" as I don't think the gun was designed to be drawn or carried hammer back. But perhaps I'm full of it.

 

[sbcman]

Hmmm.

So I've got a SigP229, it has a de-cocker () but no external 'safety'.
Normal carry would be hammer down.

It would give me a competitive advantage to leave the hammer back after chambering a round so that my first round fired would be with a single action 1911 ish trigger pull. This wouldn't matter to TJ but it is significant for mere mortals.

To my reckoning starting with hammer back on this gun would violate the spirit of "mechanical condition of readiness appropriate to their design" as I don't think the gun was designed to be drawn or carried hammer back. But perhaps I'm full of it.

Good question and I see where you're coming from, but I take it a whole different way. If a gun has a external hammer, it is to be carried cocked unless the design will not allow it. A lot of people that carry such guns don't carry them cocked, but that doesn't mean they were designed to be carried decocked.

Doesn't really matter either way. Rulewise if you're in SSP it has to be hammer down. If you're in ESP you can leave the hammer down or cocked, locked and ready to ROCK! Your choice, I know the one I would make

 

[scowens]

Those Glock bastardized actions are 'safe-action' and fall into whatever catagory you want them to be in.

I just wanted to repost this...I've got tears in my eyes. I couldn't said it any better. I'd swear that TF is promoting Glocks