June 2nd, IDPA, Red Brush Rifle Range

[Grelber]

Was thinking about SO stuff, now that I'm done obsessing about my poor shooter performance at the SSMH my mind naturally travels to additional embarrassments stemming from first attempts at s.o..

Seems like;
1. The s.o. thing is actually fun, it should be a lot more fun with better preparation and more experience, but it was actually fun even as a first time blunderer. Would not have wanted to do it without experienced shooters and S.O.'s watching and helping though.
2. Attempting to behave in a manner that would calm the shooter down actually makes you feel more calm. Might be something going on there that could help me as a shooter?
3. Scowens was the only person I recall that actually seemed to make a point to take time to gather and prepare himself before indicating he was ready. This seems like it might be a good thing, sort of like the ritual that some good free throw shooters go through.
4. It is hard to impossible to watch for 'trigger' while watching for everything else. I think this is why sometimes you see this violation fairly often as a bystander but don't hear it called that much. I'd almost like to have a dediocated trigger watcher at a match just so we could all get a feel for how well we do with this.
5. It is better when the shooter waits for your commands even though they can anticipate them. Gives you a chance to make sure your eyes and attention are where they need to be. I particularly like the folks to wait patiently before slide down.

 

[DustyDawg48]

There is a good video on YouTube from The Power Factor Show guys and it is about being an IDPA Safety Officer. Well worth a watch. [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7g5T-lLJRTg&feature=g-user-u[/ame]

In the end, I think you watch specifically for the trigger/muzzle and catch the other more obvious stuff if you can. The hardest part I've had is watching the very few left-handed shooters work a course of fire. You naturally position yourself to watch the right handed shooters but will be completely out of position when gun manipulation comes into play for the southpaws.

The other hard part, for me at least, is finding that balance between being a rules lawyer and letting it be a giant free-for-all. In that video they stress that an SO will be the make-or-break element for a great majority of shooters no matter the size and scope of the match. Too much one way or the other and the fun goes right out of the window and it becomes like a day in court instead of a day of enjoyment. Even after a year and a half of doing the SO thing I still don't know that I have my feet completely under me in that area; I'd sometimes rather work with shooters either before or after the courses instead of being the Judge, Jury and Executioner during the individual courses.

I will say that I find it a great advantage to my shooting in being an SO...I can see the course of fire 8-10 times over and know exactly how I want to shoot it by the time I'm on deck. When I'm not SOing I'm usually doing something nonconstructive and am decidedly unprepared when it's my turn on the line

 

[Titanium_Frost]

Was thinking about SO stuff, now that I'm done obsessing about my poor shooter performance at the SSMH my mind naturally travels to additional embarrassments stemming from first attempts at s.o..

Seems like;
1. The s.o. thing is actually fun, it should be a lot more fun with better preparation and more experience, but it was actually fun even as a first time blunderer. Would not have wanted to do it without experienced shooters and S.O.'s watching and helping though.
2. Attempting to behave in a manner that would calm the shooter down actually makes you feel more calm. Might be something going on there that could help me as a shooter?
3. Scowens was the only person I recall that actually seemed to make a point to take time to gather and prepare himself before indicating he was ready. This seems like it might be a good thing, sort of like the ritual that some good free throw shooters go through.
4. It is hard to impossible to watch for 'trigger' while watching for everything else. I think this is why sometimes you see this violation fairly often as a bystander but don't hear it called that much. I'd almost like to have a dediocated trigger watcher at a match just so we could all get a feel for how well we do with this.
5. It is better when the shooter waits for your commands even though they can anticipate them. Gives you a chance to make sure your eyes and attention are where they need to be. I particularly like the folks to wait patiently before slide down.

#3, Mike does his whole weird 'Magpul Mantra' while he loads and makes ready. I use that time to make fun of him an psych him out a little. I don't really think that it works ofr me because I have been his SO for about a year and he just keeps shooting better...

#4, the SO IS the dedicated trigger finger watcher. More than anything else this is the most important part of safety which IS the SO's first name . You can drop a gun and even point a gun at someone and even though those are not safe actions to do nothing is going to happen if nothing presses that damn trigger.

I got on several people about their trigger finger habits in a polite but firm way. I realize that many people just don't realize they do not possess the reflex to keep their finger straight as a board when not on target, they thougt that since they didn't FEEL the trigger that it seemed ok to keep their finger near the trigger in the guard.

#5, I absolutely agree and will slow someone down and even make them repeat the actions if they went to fast for me. Some were bad about going out before 'Range is Safe' was called since they saw me unload the competitor but it doesn't matter, I could have seen something else or wasn't ready to score or paste etc.

Hell, there could even be a SNAKE down range!

 

[DustyDawg48]

Mmmmmm.....Magpul

 

[sbcman]

Was thinking about SO stuff, now that I'm done obsessing about my poor shooter performance at the SSMH my mind naturally travels to additional embarrassments stemming from first attempts at s.o..

Seems like;
1. The s.o. thing is actually fun, it should be a lot more fun with better preparation and more experience, but it was actually fun even as a first time blunderer. Would not have wanted to do it without experienced shooters and S.O.'s watching and helping though.
2. Attempting to behave in a manner that would calm the shooter down actually makes you feel more calm. Might be something going on there that could help me as a shooter?
3. Scowens was the only person I recall that actually seemed to make a point to take time to gather and prepare himself before indicating he was ready. This seems like it might be a good thing, sort of like the ritual that some good free throw shooters go through.
4. It is hard to impossible to watch for 'trigger' while watching for everything else. I think this is why sometimes you see this violation fairly often as a bystander but don't hear it called that much. I'd almost like to have a dediocated trigger watcher at a match just so we could all get a feel for how well we do with this.
5. It is better when the shooter waits for your commands even though they can anticipate them. Gives you a chance to make sure your eyes and attention are where they need to be. I particularly like the folks to wait patiently before slide down.

There is a good video on YouTube from The Power Factor Show guys and it is about being an IDPA Safety Officer. Well worth a watch. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7g5T-lLJRTg&feature=g-user-u

In the end, I think you watch specifically for the trigger/muzzle and catch the other more obvious stuff if you can. The hardest part I've had is watching the very few left-handed shooters work a course of fire. You naturally position yourself to watch the right handed shooters but will be completely out of position when gun manipulation comes into play for the southpaws.

The other hard part, for me at least, is finding that balance between being a rules lawyer and letting it be a giant free-for-all. In that video they stress that an SO will be the make-or-break element for a great majority of shooters no matter the size and scope of the match. Too much one way or the other and the fun goes right out of the window and it becomes like a day in court instead of a day of enjoyment. Even after a year and a half of doing the SO thing I still don't know that I have my feet completely under me in that area; I'd sometimes rather work with shooters either before or after the courses instead of being the Judge, Jury and Executioner during the individual courses.

I will say that I find it a great advantage to my shooting in being an SO...I can see the course of fire 8-10 times over and know exactly how I want to shoot it by the time I'm on deck. When I'm not SOing I'm usually doing something nonconstructive and am decidedly unprepared when it's my turn on the line

#3, Mike does his whole weird 'Magpul Mantra' while he loads and makes ready. I use that time to make fun of him an psych him out a little. I don't really think that it works ofr me because I have been his SO for about a year and he just keeps shooting better...

#4, the SO IS the dedicated trigger finger watcher. More than anything else this is the most important part of safety which IS the SO's first name . You can drop a gun and even point a gun at someone and even though those are not safe actions to do nothing is going to happen if nothing presses that damn trigger.

I got on several people about their trigger finger habits in a polite but firm way. I realize that many people just don't realize they do not possess the reflex to keep their finger straight as a board when not on target, they thougt that since they didn't FEEL the trigger that it seemed ok to keep their finger near the trigger in the guard.

#5, I absolutely agree and will slow someone down and even make them repeat the actions if they went to fast for me. Some were bad about going out before 'Range is Safe' was called since they saw me unload the competitor but it doesn't matter, I could have seen something else or wasn't ready to score or paste etc.

Hell, there could even be a SNAKE down range!

Good stuff gentlemen!

Hey Ben, I am really bad about heading downrange when I see a guy holster but before "range is safe" is called. I learned that habit from the guy that got me into IDPA, but he's an SO now and he calls me out on it

I think its good so many want to be SOs and enjoy being SOs. Thanks to you all! Please remember this about August when you can't find any shade- we appreciate your dedication

If I could, I'd like to just offer this perspective, maybe get your thoughts and see what we can change in the future.

I think that we expect some things from SOs that we really shouldn't. They are "safety" officers, thus, they need to have eyes focused on the shooter's gun, trigger finger, muzzle etc- safety stuff. If an SO is really on top of their task, they shouldn't be able to know if a shooter is breaking cover and so forth. These tasks really need to go to the scorekeeper, in my opinion. In short, I think it would be good for squads to have SO certs as scorekeepers or else really experienced guys. The squad should also understand that calls will be made by the scorekeeper (except for safety calls, which is the SOs task).

Also, as weird as it sounds, I think it is a good thing to make calls on shooters for cover, finger, muzzle. procedurals, FTNs, etc on all shooters. If I am waving my muzzle around and the SO calls me on it, he is merely informing me of something I have done. If I do something that would even warrant a DQ, I DQed myself, the SO didn't, he just let me know about it. It does nothing but help the shooters game to function within the rules. It also helps keep the purity of the local matches where it needs to be.

And if you ever shoot a major, you'll be real glad you learned this stuff the hard way early on.

Of course, there are certain guys that if you make a call on, you better be sure

 

[DustyDawg48]

Great points, TJ. I think I watched one of those Power Factor segments and they said that the SO doesn't call a penalty or issue an FTDR or a DQ; the shooters themselves do it and the SO just informs them of it.

 

[Grelber]

#4, the SO IS the dedicated trigger finger watcher. More than anything else this is the most important part of safety which IS the SO's first name . You can drop a gun and even point a gun at someone and even though those are not safe actions to do nothing is going to happen if nothing presses that damn trigger.

I think you are 100% correct, but, if you watch for this and only this I don't think you will find any S.O. that does not miss the call a few times every match. Maybe that is an exaggeration because it ain't like I've shot with every s.o and some matches are more difficult than others.
A buddy was called for this at a match last year so we watched the rest of the shooters close and I guess I've gotten in the habit of looking for it when I'm standing about with nothing else to do.
Seems like weak hand only is particularly troublesome, maybe because a greater tendency to cradle the gun and a more difficult viewing angle for the S.O. are both in play?

Mike - Look forward to watching the video. Thanks!!

 

[Grelber]

I think that we expect some things from SOs that we really shouldn't. They are "safety" officers, thus, they need to have eyes focused on the shooter's gun, trigger finger, muzzle etc- safety stuff. If an SO is really on top of their task, they shouldn't be able to know if a shooter is breaking cover and so forth. These tasks really need to go to the scorekeeper, in my opinion. In short, I think it would be good for squads to have SO certs as scorekeepers or else really experienced guys. The squad should also understand that calls will be made by the scorekeeper (except for safety calls, which is the SOs task).

Also, as weird as it sounds, I think it is a good thing to make calls on shooters for cover, finger, muzzle. procedurals, FTNs, etc on all shooters. If I am waving my muzzle around and the SO calls me on it, he is merely informing me of something I have done. If I do something that would even warrant a DQ, I DQed myself, the SO didn't, he just let me know about it. It does nothing but help the shooters game to function within the rules. It also helps keep the purity of the local matches where it needs to be.

And if you ever shoot a major, you'll be real glad you learned this stuff the hard way early on.

More good stuff, in my opinion.

I think that the 'unofficial oversight' that comes from folks like you is very important when it comes to keeping a match safe. Kind of corny but an all of us making sure things are safe approach seems like the real deal. Else you are reliant on one person never making a mistake, which is risky.

Other thing is, if you ready to bring a shooter to the line and you look over and see a brass picker downrange on the far left it should be ok to shoot at him.
WSSC seemed to have a brass pickup culture that had some folks picking brass up for all while others were pasting and scoring, kind of cool, allows you to help with the match work and still not lose all your brass, and eliminates a hazard.

 

[sbcman]

More good stuff, in my opinion.

I think that the 'unofficial oversight' that comes from folks like you is very important when it comes to keeping a match safe. Kind of corny but an all of us making sure things are safe approach seems like the real deal. Else you are reliant on one person never making a mistake, which is risky.

Other thing is, if you ready to bring a shooter to the line and you look over and see a brass picker downrange on the far left it should be ok to shoot at him.
WSSC seemed to have a brass pickup culture that had some folks picking brass up for all while others were pasting and scoring, kind of cool, allows you to help with the match work and still not lose all your brass, and eliminates a hazard.

Agreed. I think when I publish a book on competition shooting it will be named "It Takes a Squad."

On a more serious note, it does take everyone. I know I held things up last month at the house when I realized that the last target had me sending rounds a barrel width away from some guys- literally. I didn't realize it when I shot, but when it was over and I saw them standing there, it shook me up- literally. Kind of a scary moment for me- I'm surprised the guys on the other side of the barrel didn't drop a (or maybe they did, I didn't stick around to check) Point being, yes, all squad members need to have a safety first mentality.

The WSSC brassrat culture is incredible. You take things to a whole new level of serious with brass when you start busting out metal detectors

 

[looney2ns]

I'm there to learn, and know I have plenty yet to absorb. I appreciate any SO that takes the time to tell me what I did wrong. When I purchased my first handgun 18 months ago, I REALLY had to struggle to get myself into the habit of finger off the trigger and along the receiver. I still to this day have to "watch it". Ben called me on this this past match during a mag change. I appreciate this because I had not a clue I had commited the act. At most IDPA matches due to my schedule, I'm sleep deprived so hopefully that will help re-enforce to my thick skull to have better control over that finger.

At the end of the day, it's all about safety and having fun while learning.

While we are at it, I have high respect for the SO's for what they do. I would have liked to, but did not go to SO training because I know I do not have the concentration level it takes to be an SO. Maybe 20 yrs ago, but not today. My hats off to the SOs and the important job you do.

 

[DustyDawg48]

TJ, on that house I was a little taken back but I didn't realize I had a train following me!

I'm not trying to hack on anything or anyone but that may be the 2nd or 3rd state that has been designed here lately for shooters but really can create havoc on SOs and other squad members.

 

[sbcman]

TJ, on that house I was a little taken back but I didn't realize I had a train following me!

I'm not trying to hack on anything or anyone but that may be the 2nd or 3rd state that has been designed here lately for shooters but really can create havoc on SOs and other squad members.

Yep- there's been a couple times that stages have created what I call an "SO Trap." The problem is that nobody thinks of such things on the walk through. It's a bad thing to find out about it when the range is hot.

 

[Titanium_Frost]

Yep- there's been a couple times that stages have created what I call an "SO Trap." The problem is that nobody thinks of such things on the walk through. It's a bad thing to find out about it when the range is hot.

Just another good reason to have veteran shooters up first but it really sucks when you take a hit on your time realizing things like that.

 

[Titanium_Frost]

I'm there to learn, and know I have plenty yet to absorb. I appreciate any SO that takes the time to tell me what I did wrong. When I purchased my first handgun 18 months ago, I REALLY had to struggle to get myself into the habit of finger off the trigger and along the receiver. I still to this day have to "watch it". Ben called me on this this past match during a mag change. I appreciate this because I had not a clue I had commited the act. At most IDPA matches due to my schedule, I'm sleep deprived so hopefully that will help re-enforce to my thick skull to have better control over that finger.

At the end of the day, it's all about safety and having fun while learning.

While we are at it, I have high respect for the SO's for what they do. I would have liked to, but did not go to SO training because I know I do not have the concentration level it takes to be an SO. Maybe 20 yrs ago, but not today. My hats off to the SOs and the important job you do.

Your problem that day was your malfunctions during a string of fire. You usually take your finger off the trigger but leave your finger 'crooked' so it is hard to tell unless you are watching really closely.

Just remember to straighten it out like an arrow because you never know when you might take a spill and bash up your knee

 

[DustyDawg48]

Your problem that day was your malfunctions during a string of fire. You usually take your finger off the trigger but leave your finger 'crooked' so it is hard to tell unless you are watching really closely.

Just remember to straighten it out like an arrow because you never know when you might take a spill and bash up your knee

You are lucky I don't charge large fees for the clinics I give

 

[sbcman]

Just another good reason to have veteran shooters up first but it really sucks when you take a hit on your time realizing things like that.

Tell me about it

Your problem that day was your malfunctions during a string of fire. You usually take your finger off the trigger but leave your finger 'crooked' so it is hard to tell unless you are watching really closely.

Just remember to straighten it out like an arrow because you never know when you might take a spill and bash up your knee

I put my finger out straight but Ayoob advocates having the trigger finger curled to avoid reflex putting it back in.

Does Magpul advocate a "crooked" finger position

 

[Grelber]

Just remember to straighten it out like an arrow

If you'd watched my hand after the cover call you would have been ecstatic!

 

[scowens]

There is a lot for an SO to: watch, see, remember, position himself, judge, coach...shall I go on? Main thing is 1 be safe, be safe, be safe, and remember the SO and tbe shooter are human. Aint nobody perfect.

 

[Titanium_Frost]

I put my finger out straight but Ayoob advocates having the trigger finger curled to avoid reflex putting it back in.

Does Magpul advocate a "crooked" finger position

I did not that. What reflex makes a straight finger press the trigger? IMO a curled finger would want to naturally rest on the trigger, but that might just be how I work.

 

[DustyDawg48]

I think the straight finger is the way to go. The curled finger is what gets people on the Serpa when they have problems. Straight finger up along the side of the slide is, for me, the way to go. Everybody's mileage may vary but the biggest thing is to work those malfunctions while dry-fire practicing to insure that the stress of trying to clear said malfunction doesn't cause a lapse in safety.

The only issue I have ever had with the finger high on the side is with my M&P9. I'll have it up there right next to the ambi slide release and during a slide-lock reload I've had my finger bump it while inserting the mag, trying to do that 45 degree bump that releases the slide, and it'll prematurely release it without actually picking up a round. I've had to force myself to slow down a bit so I get the mag fully seated before dropping the slide. My Glock and M&P45 I have no issues with but the frame is just the right size on that 9 to give me the smallest of fits.