INGO member in handcuffs

[Hammerhead]

Hammerhead's Notes (I'm kicking Cliff to the curb for the moment):

OC event in Indy, with members carrying long guns.
INGOers end up at Downtown Market.
LEOs show up, start asking questions.
LEO starts asking ATF consumer to "make his gun safe" without cause.
ATF consumer refuses to comply with unlawful unnecessary order.
ATF consumer asks if he's being detained.
ATF consumer is handcuffed, relieved of his weapons (except for one).
Other INGOers are now demanded to comply with clearing and making "safe" their weapons.
Other LEOs stand around and do not intervene.
INGOers are POed at having their rights trampled.
INGOers get their guns and papers back and are removed from Downtown Market by being told a lie about "management not wanting guns in the Market"; INGOer calls management of property, proves this to be outright lie.
INGOers go to Dick's Bodacious BBQ for lunch, are welcomed by employees, have no further problems, same as they had at Colt's rally before incident at Market.
INGO informed of JBT behavior by JBT LEOs; arguments and hilarity ensues.

 

[Roadie]

I still cannot understand for the life of me how ANYONE could think that having a group of guys unloading and clearing their weapons IN PUBLIC was "safer".

The mind boggles.

 

[Cru]

Hammerhead's Notes (I'm kicking Cliff to the curb for the moment):

OC event in Indy, with members carrying long guns.
INGOers end up at Downtown Market.
LEOs show up, start asking questions.
LEO starts asking ATF consumer to "make his gun safe" without cause.
ATF consumer refuses to comply with unlawful unnecessary order.
ATF consumer asks if he's being detained.
ATF consumer is handcuffed, relieved of his weapons (except for one).
Other INGOers are now demanded to comply with clearing and making "safe" their weapons.
Other LEOs stand around and do not intervene.
INGOers are POed at having their rights trampled.
INGOers get their guns and papers back and are removed from Downtown Market by being told a lie about "management not wanting guns in the Market"; INGOer calls management of property, proves this to be outright lie.
INGOers go to Dick's Bodacious BBQ for lunch, are welcomed by employees, have no further problems, same as they had at Colt's rally before incident at Market.
INGO informed of JBT behavior by JBT LEOs; arguments and hilarity ensues.

Yeah, that sums it up better probably.

 

[Cru]

I still cannot understand for the life of me how ANYONE could think that having a group of guys unloading and clearing their weapons IN PUBLIC was "safer".

The mind boggles.

The one that boggled my mind was when an officer we were talking to (after ATF was released from bondage) told Wag1911 to de-cock his 1911. Wag tried to explain WHY he felt this was a bad idea and the officer insisted that he de-cock.

 

[dukeboy_318]

The one that boggled my mind was when an officer we were talking to (after ATF was released from bondage) told Wag1911 to de-cock his 1911. Wag tried to explain WHY he felt this was a bad idea and the officer insisted that he de-cock.

Uh yeah, what would have happened if his thumb had slipped and the gun went off?? Some people just don't understand some things even after being taught. Plus one for Wag1911 for not having an accident

 

[dukeboy_318]

Actually a round of applause for all of you for this

 

[SavageEagle]

SO lets say the police do nothing and a massacre happens. Who gets blamed? Yep the jack booted po po. A person with a gun call is going to get a response. Again it is un common and makes no sense. Just because you can don't mean you should.

Once again you just don't walk around in a crowded public place with a long gun slung across your chest. If a cop did the same some of you people would be all over it.

So I'm having a little trouble understanding why you're arguing with people in this thread.

No one ever said they didn't expect police to show up. You say we're *****ing about the police showing up checking LTCHs. We're not complaining about that at all.

We're upset about rights being violated. Not because they showed up and checked them out. We're talking about being detained for NO GOOD REASON and firearms being (temporarily) confiscated for NO GOOD REASON. These were illegal acts, pure and simple. And you are sitting here, talking about how we're on the same side, yet defending the violation of ATFC's rights, and saying how we're wrong for making an issue about it.

Please. PLEASE explain to me how FORCING people to pull out their guns, have them manipulate them to clear them, and taking people's guns away from them when they have done NOTHING WRONG, was the right thing to do.

Officer safety is BS because there were many others standing around armed. To check the valid ownership of the MP5 is BS because they never even asked to see the NFA Stamp.

So please explain your logic to me because you have me dumbfounded. All you've stated is your OPINION that it was a stupid thing to do. Ok, that's your opinion. I think you're loony, but that's MY opinion. I want to hear, err, read what facts make you think it's ok for LEOs to violate people's rights.

 

[Roadie]

The one that boggled my mind was when an officer we were talking to (after ATF was released from bondage) told Wag1911 to de-cock his 1911. Wag tried to explain WHY he felt this was a bad idea and the officer insisted that he de-cock.

Agreed!
When I told my wife about all of this and I got to the part about them being made to pull their weapons, unload and clear, she said the same thing I did earlier:

"What if another Officer had walked up and saw a bunch of Officers, and a bunch of citizens, and a couple citizens suddenly pulling weapons?!?"

SO many reasons the unholstering, unloading, clearing, and decocking orders were not only illegal, not only a violation of rights, but in MANY ways just downright dangerous.

 

[Cru]

Agreed!
When I told my wife about all of this and I got to the part about them being made to pull their weapons, unload and clear, she said the same thing I did earlier:

"What if another Officer had walked up and saw a bunch of Officers, and a bunch of citizens, and a couple citizens suddenly pulling weapons?!?"

SO many reasons the unholstering, unloading, clearing, and decocking orders were not only illegal, not only a violation of rights, but in MANY ways just downright dangerous.

 

[j706]

So I'm having a little trouble understanding why you're arguing with people in this thread.

No one ever said they didn't expect police to show up. You say we're *****ing about the police showing up checking LTCHs. We're not complaining about that at all.

We're upset about rights being violated. Not because they showed up and checked them out. We're talking about being detained for NO GOOD REASON and firearms being (temporarily) confiscated for NO GOOD REASON. These were illegal acts, pure and simple. And you are sitting here, talking about how we're on the same side, yet defending the violation of ATFC's rights, and saying how we're wrong for making an issue about it.

Please. PLEASE explain to me how FORCING people to pull out their guns, have them manipulate them to clear them, and taking people's guns away from them when they have done NOTHING WRONG, was the right thing to do.

Officer safety is BS because there were many others standing around armed. To check the valid ownership of the MP5 is BS because they never even asked to see the NFA Stamp.

So please explain your logic to me because you have me dumbfounded. All you've stated is your OPINION that it was a stupid thing to do. Ok, that's your opinion. I think you're loony, but that's MY opinion. I want to hear, err, read what facts make you think it's ok for LEOs to violate people's rights.

Hmmmm....I think it is "loony" to think it is cool to walk around in public with long guns and then question ANY response. No one rights were violated. Doubt me then hire counsel and sue. Then when it is all said and done come back and tell us how it worked out.

We are on the same side. But I can tell you this,we are sure as heck different. If you see me anywhere off duty you will never know I am armed. If I need to take a long gun some place in public you can bet it will be cased or covered. I don't like attention. I don't need attention. And for about the fourth time if this type of stuff becomes common place I am afraid you will see new legislation making it illegal. Then people will be crying about that. As a gun owner in this state we all have it pretty darn good. Lets not ruin it with dramatics.

I am done with this thread. IMO it has gone on way to long as it is for what it is.

 

[critter592]

Why in the world has no one answered the most important question here?

How do you change settings to view more posts per page?

 

[critter592]

..........

 

[critter592]

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[Eddie]

Hmmmm....I think it is "loony" to think it is cool to walk around in public with long guns and then question ANY response. No one rights were violated. Doubt me then hire counsel and sue. Then when it is all said and done come back and tell us how it worked out.

We are on the same side. But I can tell you this,we are sure as heck different. If you see me anywhere off duty you will never know I am armed. If I need to take a long gun some place in public you can bet it will be cased or covered. I don't like attention. I don't need attention. And for about the fourth time if this type of stuff becomes common place I am afraid you will see new legislation making it illegal. Then people will be crying about that. As a gun owner in this state we all have it pretty darn good. Lets not ruin it with dramatics.

I am done with this thread. IMO it has gone on way to long as it is for what it is.

You have repeatedly avoided SE's question. He has told you that they were not questioning "any response". The complaint (as it seems to be in not only this but so many other threads) is that once the LEO's had an opportunity to confirm that no crimes were being committed why did the stop continue? Why handcuff someone who is obeying the law? What reason did they have to "verify ownership" of the MP5? Why lie about management at City Market wanting them to leave? This is the heart of the problem. Law abiding citizens can own and carry firearms and they should not be harassed for doing so. Anything that went on after it was verified that these men were carrying legally was just harassment, plain and simple.

 

[lovemachine]

THIS is a good idea. Somebody needs to talk to a lawyer, and what he says. Find out if rights were actually violated. I believe it would be worth hearing what a lawyer says.

Hmmmm....I think it is "loony" to think it is cool to walk around in public with long guns and then question ANY response. No one rights were violated. Doubt me then hire counsel and sue. Then when it is all said and done come back and tell us how it worked out.

We are on the same side. But I can tell you this,we are sure as heck different. If you see me anywhere off duty you will never know I am armed. If I need to take a long gun some place in public you can bet it will be cased or covered. I don't like attention. I don't need attention. And for about the fourth time if this type of stuff becomes common place I am afraid you will see new legislation making it illegal. Then people will be crying about that. As a gun owner in this state we all have it pretty darn good. Lets not ruin it with dramatics.

I am done with this thread. IMO it has gone on way to long as it is for what it is.

 

[Joe Williams]

THIS is a good idea. Somebody needs to talk to a lawyer, and what he says. Find out if rights were actually violated. I believe it would be worth hearing what a lawyer says.

Given Indymonkey's sudden shutdown, we know that at least one person has chatted with a lawyer, and I suspect we can deduce that there will indeed be a followup.

 

[samot]

Given Indymonkey's sudden shutdown, we know that at least one person has chatted with a lawyer, and I suspect we can deduce that there will indeed be a followup.

IMO his case will be different !
Everyone keeps saying he was carrying a long gun when in fact he was carring A Title II SBR !!!
& i can assure you BATFE aint no IMPD
curious to see what will unfold

 

[alexanjl12]

Oh poopy. I really wanted to see the video too. I really wish I could have been there.

All he said is he wont be posting it....doesnt mean we still cant see it this weekend

 

[bigus_D]

... And for about the fourth time if this type of stuff becomes common place I am afraid you will see new legislation making it illegal. Then people will be crying about that.

Note to self: do not exercise a right you have because if you call attention to it, you might lose your right.

j706. I saw your post on officer.com regarding this event. You echo that opinion here. I think rhino sums up the proper response to your position very well.

Note: I also carry my handgun concealed. When I leave the house with a long gun, I keep it bagged (and usually under a blanket). I simply don't want anybody to know I've got a gun. This is a decision each person must make for themselves. Reading about this event makes me want to carry open now. I could give to s if it makes you or anybody else uncomfortable. A right unexcersized is a right lost.

 

[schafe]

Agreed!
When I told my wife about all of this and I got to the part about them being made to pull their weapons, unload and clear, she said the same thing I did earlier:

"What if another Officer had walked up and saw a bunch of Officers, and a bunch of citizens, and a couple citizens suddenly pulling weapons?!?"

SO many reasons the unholstering, unloading, clearing, and decocking orders were not only illegal, not only a violation of rights, but in MANY ways just downright dangerous.

It's interesting to see this posted. My wife and I had exactly the same reaction and conversation about this. Our conclusion? The arriving officer would reasonably believe that his fellow officer(s) was (were)in mortal danger. There would be fewer INGO members afterward, and the shooting could probably be justified in court. To quote William Bendix...."What a revoltin' development this is!"