If you are asked to leave, do you have to pay?

[Libertarian01]

To All,

A hypothetical situational legal question regarding this scenario:

#1) I enter a restaurant, sit, am served and begin eating;
#2) At some time before I am finished I am informed by the management and / or employee that they either a) want my gun to leave or b) want me to leave with the gun;
#3) When asked I refuse to leave before I want to;
#4) Local LE is called and they arrive;
#5) The situation is explained to them;
#6) Local LE wants to see my LTCH and I comply;
#7) Local LE tells me I must leave the premises or I will be arrested;
#8) I comply but refuse to pay;
#9) Business owner wants me to pay;
#10) Again I refuse under the premise that we had a civil, contractual relationship that would exchange my money for a sit down meal in their establishment. As they have not fulfilled their end of the contract (by forcing me to leave) I consider this a civil matter.

Am I correct that the LE, once I leave and am in violation of no state law or local ordnance are done with me? In other words, once I leave LE is done and cannot further intervene even by giving the business owner my information without violating my privacy rights?

Why or why not???

In my business law class we were taught that many of the transactions of a business arrangement (such as providing a service or product) fall under civil law where one party may sue the other for breach of contract but that criminal law does not apply.

So now I am left wondering. If I have NOT finished my very last bite and and I forced to leave I have not received my meal. This at the instigation of the business owner.

What do you think?

I am not asking morally or ethically, only legally.

Regards,

Doug

 

[Skywired]

To All,

A hypothetical situational legal question regarding this scenario:

#1) I enter a restaurant, sit, am served and begin eating;
#2) At some time before I am finished I am informed by the management and / or employee that they either a) want my gun to leave or b) want me to leave with the gun;
#3) When asked I refuse to leave before I want to;
#4) Local LE is called and they arrive;
#5) The situation is explained to them;
#6) Local LE wants to see my LTCH and I comply;
#7) Local LE tells me I must leave the premises or I will be arrested;
#8) I comply but refuse to pay;
#9) Business owner wants me to pay;
#10) Again I refuse under the premise that we had a civil, contractual relationship that would exchange my money for a sit down meal in their establishment. As they have not fulfilled their end of the contract (by forcing me to leave) I consider this a civil matter.

Am I correct that the LE, once I leave and am in violation of no state law or local ordnance are done with me? In other words, once I leave LE is done and cannot further intervene even by giving the business owner my information without violating my privacy rights?

Why or why not???

In my business law class we were taught that many of the transactions of a business arrangement (such as providing a service or product) fall under civil law where one party may sue the other for breach of contract but that criminal law does not apply.

So now I am left wondering. If I have NOT finished my very last bite and and I forced to leave I have not received my meal. This at the instigation of the business owner.

What do you think?

I am not asking morally or ethically, only legally.

Regards,

Doug

Not trying to be cute... but it doesn't make any difference what I think, or what you think. The ONLY thing that counts is: what that officer thinks on the street.

He may be right. He may be wrong. Only a court can answer that. But while he's on the street: HE IS RIGHT. Period. Agree with it, or risk jail.

Sorry, life is not fair.

 

[eatsnopaste]

Only a complete idiot would give a tip.

Id pay for the meal and tell em se ya!!!

Jimmy

YEAH! Screw that waiter/waitress who makes $2.13 an hour and has to work for an obvious richard!

 

[Colt556]

Ok, I'll admit it, I'm lazy so I didn't read most of page 2. My take though is if I'm asked to leave before my meal is finished I'm not paying or tipping. If my meal is finished I'd pay and tip, unless the server is the one who started it all, and be on my way b/c I hate to just sit around in restaurants after I'm finished eating anyway. On my way out though I would inform the manager that I'd be contacting his superiors and that I will never eat in his establishment again. This would all be conducted calmly and without causing a scene.

 

[RabbleRouser]

IMO... If I'm DONE eating, out of courtesy I'll pay for the food I ate but I will NOT tip. Not sure of legalities though.

here is the problem with that, the tip does not affect the restaurant whatsoever that effects the server who has nothing to do with the restaurant's policies. your server didn't make the rule and didnt make the call to ask you to leave. restaurant servers only make $2.13 per hour and the taxes they have to pay come out of THAT. when you go to a restaurant and don't tip your server then not only do they not get paid for serving you but they have to pay taxes on the food YOU ate (taxes based on 18% of their sales) so now, even if they didn't have any problem with your carrying a gun, by stiffing them over a policy that they have absolutely no control over they NOW have a reason to dislike gun owners.

 

[THard6]

IMO... If I'm DONE eating, out of courtesy I'll pay for the food I ate but I will NOT tip. Not sure of legalities though.

so you punish the server?

Beat me to it ^

 

[Faine]

Again, this is all situational. I don't think there is a right or wrong answer. I myself typically don't carry cash for instance so if I didn't pay the establishment I cannot tip the waitress/waitor. Now if I happened to have cash, I would certainly tip the server, regardless of if they were involved in the incident and here's why.

A: As a server you're there for 2 reasons. To support yourself or support your family. How many servers have you met that work at a restaraunt because of its policies? People that make 2.37/hr don't give a rip about policies they care about their tip and their nightly income.

B: Even if the server was involved in the incident, ultimately the server does not have the authority, typically, to ask you to leave. It would be a serious slap in the face of the restaraunt to tip someone who was just as actively pursuing your departure but not pay the bill and for that person it would show them that you care about them more than their employer and their policies.

Now I'm not one for ripping off restaraunts or anything of the like, but I am in complete agreement with the statements regarding eating out and it not being about "food". I can cook 95% of what I eat out myself at home for a fraction of the price. I go out to celebrate, to enjoy being served once in a while, to do something fun. If the 2nd Amendment prevents that, I'll find another location.

 

[theblackknight]

So this is the dumb crap open carry people think about

 

[SkullDaddy.45]

Well, my wife's sister runs a restaurant in Michigan . I called her to asked what would happend if she asked a patron to leave for any reason , would she expect to get payed, her response was that for any reason, whether it be for firearms or just a loud or unruly guest she would let them take home the meal, and not let them pay. She says that way thier happy and the situation gets solved without much problems. She also says she would never ask anyone to leave just because they OC.

 

[hzwj67]

Yeah, pay,tip be courteous. If tthe managrment causes a scene, asks you to leave..ask them if they want you to pay first or just leave. Be a good representative of responsible,mature gun owners.

 

[actaeon277]

So this is the dumb crap open carry people think about

Cause CC people never get outed.

Since CC is not Invisible Carry,
you might just pay attention and think. Maybe even contribute.
Instead of mock.

But that's right. I forgot. With all the CCers out there, no one has ever been discovered. And its only OCers with the problem.

 

[ModernGunner]

Well, I'll just stick to Indiana, since that's where we're located.

Obviously, the answer to this would depend on when you were asked to leave. But for this post, let's presume you've eaten all or almost all your meal.

If the management wants you to leave without paying, then that's their prerogative.

If the management wants you to pay up and get out, if you do not do so, it's a theft. Therefore, if LE is called to intercede in the matter, that's going to be the response, pay up or face arrest for theft.

Presuming that it wasn't the waitress that insisted you leave but management (for whatever unfathomable reason), I'm not sure I understand the 'logic' in stiffing the waitress, as she's just passing on the message (more likely a Manager would come to the table and address the issue).

Never had the issue pop up, even though I eat at restaurants regularly. Not even sure why the issue would come up, but I suppose it could. But the appropriate answer is that you had a meal, you need to pay for it.

Nor am I sure what difference it would make whether one carries openly or concealed, except one is less likely to have the issue even raised if they are carrying concealed (probably another +1 for CC'ing - don't create issues where there were none).

 

[JeremiahJohnson]

I'm going to assume this is a question put to me personally. I do not go in restaurants that post a no gun sign [EVER]. If, for some reason, say I'm with a group and they talk me into it, somehow I find myself in a restaurant that has for all intents and purposes already asked me to leave - it's on me. Pay and Tip.

 

[Vic_Mackey]

Hell with em. I'll tip, unless the waiter is to blame for my problem. Other than that, if they don't want my business then they don't want my money.

 

[Vic_Mackey]

So this is the dumb crap open carry people think about

So this is what people who've been here for years and have 57 posts think about. Obviously you don't read much our you'd see CC guys have plenty of problems. Here's an idea, invent an invisible gun and become hero of INGO.

 

[andski3]

In my opinion, if I am asked to leave politely, then I ask them politely " Do you want me to stick around and pay my check or would you like me to go ahead and leave?" I respond accordingly. If they are rude and tell me to leave then that is what I do. If the server did their job, they will be tipped regardless.
Again, this is just what I would do.

 

[Signal23]

In my opinion, if I am asked to leave politely, then I ask them politely " Do you want me to stick around and pay my check or would you like me to go ahead and leave?" I respond accordingly. If they are rude and tell me to leave then that is what I do. If the server did their job, they will be tipped regardless.
Again, this is just what I would do.

Sounds great!!

 

[TB1999]

IMO... If I'm DONE eating, out of courtesy I'll pay for the food I ate but I will NOT tip. Not sure of legalities though.

You have obviously never made your living by waiting tables. -100 to you.

 

[Pinchaser]

The saddest part of the OP's question is that we have reached a point in our society where someone has the need to ask such a question.

Individual responsibility.....today's American has absolutely no clue.

 

[youngda9]

I walk immediately if asked to leave. Not paying full price for a partially finished meal. If they don't want my business they don't get it. Don't see the point in rewarding a business for throwing you out. So many people on a high horse in this thread. If the waitress was not involved I would attempt to tip her for her time.