Here Comes the Executive Order on Background Checks

[SSGSAD]

Just to clarify.......Getting "Kick Someone in the junk" mad and sounding off in here is not the answer.
Anger feeds anger and generates more visceral responses.
What has kept this thread on track is the lack of those who fit into the mold I describe. They have not found reason to get involved so no clear targets have been offered up. Most everyone involved is like minded.

That said, yes, I am kick someone in the junk mad I just am not sure who to start with right now. Like Bill stated (on point as always) focus the energy where it will matter. I have had so many extensive conversations with decent people that are left/lib leaning and 90% of them was a waste of energy. The 10% (est) that I did get out to the range have for the most part crossed over. They still vote for the same people but behind closed doors admit some of that thinking is flawed.
There is still much to do.

I do see the media as complicit in all of this. They are now tools of the same big money that runs the politico's and there fore the country.

In addition to the above, take one or more, to a gun show, or a gun shop, and let them watch someone, or you, buy a gun, and let them see first hand

what actually happens, when someone buys a gun ..... If you have to set it up before hand, with an employee,

to let the person, ask questions, B4, during, and after the sale .....

 

[IndyDave1776]

IndyDave, I share your pessimism, but I'll be DA*NED if I'll give in to it. I worry and I fear that we will indeed be forced into a war none of us want (and truly, what sane person who will actually be shooting and being shot at desires war?) but that does not for one idle second mean I'm not going to fight to prevent that from happening

Bill, I suppose that the difference is that I have reached that point in life, albeit prematurely, where I am getting tired. I am tired of being locked into the rat race where even winning grants nothing beyond the distinction of being the fastest rat. I am tired, by extension of finding myself standing as a 'human doing' rather than a human being. I am tired of fighting against stupidity on terms in which I am generally guaranteed to lose.

My single biggest irritation is that what I really want is simply to be left alone as our founders intended, but instead have to deal with people who not only are asshats but insist on imposing their asshattery on everyone else. As I see it, right now we are in the intermission, a period in which life is neither peaceful nor pleasant in the sense it was at one time in our history when a person really didn't have to worry about this nonsense and the point at which the inevitable happens.

You are absolutely right that no sane person actually wants to be in the midst of flying lead. As that goes, in my reckoning, no sane person wants to be dependent on the supplies he has in the basement with outside supplies no longer existing apart from the rare fortuitous find stemming from someone else's stored goods that are either traded or, well, no longer needed by their original owners. That doesn't change the fact that it is a virtually guaranteed outcome. At this point, so far as I am concerned, the best I can do is to prepare the best I can for what assuredly is coming and seeing to it that my nieces and nephews are prepared in every regard, particularly in the understanding they will need to survive difficult times.

At the end of the day, if I can perfect a number of things I intend to do toward supplying my own food and then teach the kids how to do these things, teach them how to protect themselves, and most important teach them as they become old enough to understand the importance of the principles upon which the republic was founded, I will feel that I have succeeded. If I can pick up a few converts along the way, I will also consider that a victory. On the other hand, I have learned the hard way that trying to make converts has a tendency to pour time and resources down rat holes which could otherwise be used productively. The unfortunate truth is that you get more of what you subsidize, and the most insidious result of Johnson's highly-touted Great Society is not the obscene amounts of money stolen and wasted, but rather the sheer number of people who have responded to the subsidy on uselessness aside for voting for those who perpetuate the subsidy. The net result is that there is an undue influence on our republic by people who bring nothing but greed and stupidity to the table in the complete absence of principle--the epitome of Ayn Rand's looters and moochers. No amount of reason will change this.

 

[cbhausen]

Stop trying to Yeager my post. cbhausen gets it.

So does ATM...

 

[sgreen3]

Bill, I suppose that the difference is that I have reached that point in life, albeit prematurely, where I am getting tired. I am tired of being locked into the rat race where even winning grants nothing beyond the distinction of being the fastest rat. I am tired, by extension of finding myself standing as a 'human doing' rather than a human being. I am tired of fighting against stupidity on terms in which I am generally guaranteed to lose.

My single biggest irritation is that what I really want is simply to be left alone as our founders intended, but instead have to deal with people who not only are asshats but insist on imposing their asshattery on everyone else. As I see it, right now we are in the intermission, a period in which life is neither peaceful nor pleasant in the sense it was at one time in our history when a person really didn't have to worry about this nonsense and the point at which the inevitable happens.

You are absolutely right that no sane person actually wants to be in the midst of flying lead. As that goes, in my reckoning, no sane person wants to be dependent on the supplies he has in the basement with outside supplies no longer existing apart from the rare fortuitous find stemming from someone else's stored goods that are either traded or, well, no longer needed by their original owners. That doesn't change the fact that it is a virtually guaranteed outcome. At this point, so far as I am concerned, the best I can do is to prepare the best I can for what assuredly is coming and seeing to it that my nieces and nephews are prepared in every regard, particularly in the understanding they will need to survive difficult times.

At the end of the day, if I can perfect a number of things I intend to do toward supplying my own food and then teach the kids how to do these things, teach them how to protect themselves, and most important teach them as they become old enough to understand the importance of the principles upon which the republic was founded, I will feel that I have succeeded. If I can pick up a few converts along the way, I will also consider that a victory. On the other hand, I have learned the hard way that trying to make converts has a tendency to pour time and resources down rat holes which could otherwise be used productively. The unfortunate truth is that you get more of what you subsidize, and the most insidious result of Johnson's highly-touted Great Society is not the obscene amounts of money stolen and wasted, but rather the sheer number of people who have responded to the subsidy on uselessness aside for voting for those who perpetuate the subsidy. The net result is that there is an undue influence on our republic by people who bring nothing but greed and stupidity to the table in the complete absence of principle--the epitome of Ayn Rand's looters and moochers. No amount of reason will change this.

Very well said Dave, couldn't agree more.

 

[Trigger Time]

Yes it is coming. We must provide for ourselves and family. All the signs are on the wall that history is repeating itself and tyrants think they are above mans laws and Gods.
I'm sure our founders were mocked and ridiculed too just like we are today. They were "known" to their adversaries just as we are known today by ours. The technology of the days are different but equal in their own respects to what the people of each time knew.
Be prepared. Stand for what is right.

 

[actaeon277]

If one change can be made that will wake the masses up it is eliminate income tax withholding.
Make everyone write a check to the government quarterly or monthly.

You would see sweeping & massive changes in government within 1 year.

A thousand times yes.
With one mod.
Write a check for federal, state, local (3 checks) once a month.
Eliminate all the fees, charges, surcharges, whatever. Roll them into one bill for each. Minimize hiding the amount with a million separate fees. No school book rental. No drivers license fee. No LTCH fee.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

A failing, semi-retired President wants to issue an unenforceable Executive Order about the number of guns one can sell before needing an FFL and INGO goes to AlexJones 5?

Geez, you guys.

Alright, let's wargame it out:

1. Obama issues an EO directing ATF to say "in business" means 50 guns or more (or whatever).

2. Just how will this be enforced? Is ATFEEIEIO going to issue everyone a Subway punch card for 50 guns?

3. Don't you guys know about Newton's 3rd Law? If one needs to have an FFL for selling X number of guns, then there will be a logical push to make an FFL very easy to get again. Back to the kitchen table dealers, lol.

Push down, pop up: Press down, pop up | The Economist

4. Don't you realize how this will impact Democrats nationwide. Compound the raw anger at INGO nationwide and you have people motivate to oppose Obama at every level of government.

Guys, relax, he is feckless. Laugh at him.

 

[actaeon277]

I remember the year Clinton raised taxes, my exemptions were set up for the old withholdings. That year I had to write a check for $1500 above what was already withheld. I can tell you, I said a few naughty words out loud as I wrote out that check. It really pissed me off especially thinking about what the government was doing with my money. "Midnight basketball" was all the rage then. Now if that extra $1500 would have been taken out of my paycheck over the course of the year, would I have been as pissed as I was when I wrote the check? Probably not.

If people had to write out a check each month for their tax bill, yeah, it would make the people who aren't takers think a lot more about what that money goes to fund. I've said before I wish that every government expense that goes beyond the most basic non-discretionary functions of government that need to be funded was voluntary. Would people be so willing to write out a check to "Welfare". How about to study the impact of cow farts on global warming? If people had to write checks out for each category of discretionary spending, probably government would become much smaller.

First, I think EVERYONE should pay taxes. If you vote to spend money, then you should be willing to part with some of your own money.
Second, everyone starts writing a check, I bet there will be changes in who gets, and who pays.

Some of my friends are mad at the rich getting money.
Some are mad at those that don't work.
I'm against anyone getting money, except as necessary to run a small government.
Let the states take over many of the functions the feds have bullied themselves into.
Then, if you don't like your state or local policies, you can vote with your feet.

 

[Bennettjh]

A failing, semi-retired President wants to issue an unenforceable Executive Order about the number of guns one can sell before needing an FFL and INGO goes to AlexJones 5?

Geez, you guys.

Alright, let's wargame it out:

1. Obama issues an EO directing ATF to say "in business" means 50 guns or more (or whatever).

2. Just how will this be enforced? Is ATFEEIEIO going to issue everyone a Subway punch card for 50 guns?

3. Don't you guys know about Newton's 3rd Law? If one needs to have an FFL for selling X number of guns, then there will be a logical push to make an FFL very easy to get again. Back to the kitchen table dealers, lol.

Push down, pop up: Press down, pop up | The Economist

4. Don't you realize how this will impact Democrats nationwide. Compound the raw anger at INGO nationwide and you have people motivate to oppose Obama at every level of government.

Guys, relax, he is feckless. Laugh at him.

I like this.^

 

[SSGSAD]

A thousand times yes.
With one mod.
Write a check for federal, state, local (3 checks) once a month.
Eliminate all the fees, charges, surcharges, whatever. Roll them into one bill for each. Minimize hiding the amount with a million separate fees. No school book rental. No drivers license fee. No LTCH fee.

Flat 10%, Fed., 5%, flat State, and 2 1/2 % local, withheld, NO FILING, for Indiv.....

No more Indiv., IRS ..... IRS, ONLY for business ......

 

[cobber]

[H]e is feckless. Laugh at him.

Yes, but he has his gang of poltroons continually pushing new laws, not to mention the mendacious media jackals.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Yes, but he has his gang of poltroons continually pushing new laws, not to mention the mendacious media jackals

Then we seize the culture and direct the future.

The courts cannot go where the culture has not.

 

[churchmouse]

A failing, semi-retired President wants to issue an unenforceable Executive Order about the number of guns one can sell before needing an FFL and INGO goes to AlexJones 5?

Geez, you guys.

Alright, let's wargame it out:

1. Obama issues an EO directing ATF to say "in business" means 50 guns or more (or whatever).

2. Just how will this be enforced? Is ATFEEIEIO going to issue everyone a Subway punch card for 50 guns?

3. Don't you guys know about Newton's 3rd Law? If one needs to have an FFL for selling X number of guns, then there will be a logical push to make an FFL very easy to get again. Back to the kitchen table dealers, lol.

Push down, pop up: Press down, pop up | The Economist

4. Don't you realize how this will impact Democrats nationwide. Compound the raw anger at INGO nationwide and you have people motivate to oppose Obama at every level of government.

Guys, relax, he is feckless. Laugh at him.

I wish I could Kirk. I really do. He is a reflection of what is happening in society right now or he would not be in the big boy chair. I do think that is what really frightens me the most. Those fools put him there 2 times.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

A failing, semi-retired President wants to issue an unenforceable Executive Order about the number of guns one can sell before needing an FFL and INGO goes to AlexJones 5?

Geez, you guys.

Alright, let's wargame it out:

1. Obama issues an EO directing ATF to say "in business" means 50 guns or more (or whatever).

2. Just how will this be enforced? Is ATFEEIEIO going to issue everyone a Subway punch card for 50 guns?

3. Don't you guys know about Newton's 3rd Law? If one needs to have an FFL for selling X number of guns, then there will be a logical push to make an FFL very easy to get again. Back to the kitchen table dealers, lol.

Push down, pop up: Press down, pop up | The Economist

4. Don't you realize how this will impact Democrats nationwide. Compound the raw anger at INGO nationwide and you have people motivate to oppose Obama at every level of government.

Guys, relax, he is feckless. Laugh at him.

Yeah the enforcement part of all this is what I've wondered about. I guess it's conceivable you could do something about the collectors at the gun shows. I'm not exactly sure what but I'm sure they'd come up with something. But I've dealt with folks that were not at gun shows. How will they find and regulate them?

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

Then we seize the culture and direct the future.

The courts cannot go where the culture has not.

Yeah, they "can". By oath, they're supposed to but they don't.

 

[in625shooter]

A failing, semi-retired President wants to issue an unenforceable Executive Order about the number of guns one can sell before needing an FFL and INGO goes to AlexJones 5?

Geez, you guys.

Alright, let's wargame it out:

1. Obama issues an EO directing ATF to say "in business" means 50 guns or more (or whatever).

2. Just how will this be enforced? Is ATFEEIEIO going to issue everyone a Subway punch card for 50 guns?

3. Don't you guys know about Newton's 3rd Law? If one needs to have an FFL for selling X number of guns, then there will be a logical push to make an FFL very easy to get again. Back to the kitchen table dealers, lol.

Push down, pop up: Press down, pop up | The Economist

4. Don't you realize how this will impact Democrats nationwide. Compound the raw anger at INGO nationwide and you have people motivate to oppose Obama at every level of government.

Guys, relax, he is feckless. Laugh at him.

To go along with what Kirk mentions let me add (just an observation) and after skimming most of the 40 some pages it hasn't been brought up.

Many MANY People selling guns on INGO require a background check by proxy and NO ONE ever makes mention of it. I am talking about the sellers that require to see a LTCH even on rifle purchases is nothing but a background check just you are seeing that the State Police did it......just sayin

This whole Executive Order BS is nothing but talking points and in the grand sceme of things will do nothing but make the Bloombergs of the world think it will help.

I agree with Kirk, how are they going to prove anything, it is just them telling themselves what they wish to hear!

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

Yes, but he has his gang of poltroons continually pushing new laws, not to mention the mendacious media jackals.

As I said somewhere else: where are our representatives and senators that will push back? We surely have guys and gals in safe, reliable districts that, year in, year out, can propose repealing Huges Amendment, removing silencers and SBRs off of the NFA requirements, and occasionally, when a little excitement is called for, outright repeal of NFA. Why don't we have our own "kooks"?

 

[IndyDave1776]

A failing, semi-retired President wants to issue an unenforceable Executive Order about the number of guns one can sell before needing an FFL and INGO goes to AlexJones 5?

Geez, you guys.

Alright, let's wargame it out:

1. Obama issues an EO directing ATF to say "in business" means 50 guns or more (or whatever).

2. Just how will this be enforced? Is ATFEEIEIO going to issue everyone a Subway punch card for 50 guns?

3. Don't you guys know about Newton's 3rd Law? If one needs to have an FFL for selling X number of guns, then there will be a logical push to make an FFL very easy to get again. Back to the kitchen table dealers, lol.

Push down, pop up: Press down, pop up | The Economist

4. Don't you realize how this will impact Democrats nationwide. Compound the raw anger at INGO nationwide and you have people motivate to oppose Obama at every level of government.

Guys, relax, he is feckless. Laugh at him.

I seem to recall this same basic argument made 1993 and earlier.

1. Not really an action point for our purposes. Unconstitutional as hell, but given that Obama sees the Constitution as an obstacle to circumvent and not a guide to follow, I don't see him slowing down any.

2. The IRS can come to the conclusion that you are guilty of tax evasion and pull a number out of its ass regarding how much money they decide that you made and how much they decide that you owe them. In my observation, these numbers can end up very far from the realm of objective reality. So, why can the BATFags not make some educated guess based on similar criteria? You are at a gun show with 30 guns from your personal collection on a table. Let's see, we are going to assume that you regularly sell most of what you bring--OK, we'll give you the benefit of the doubt and presume that you only sell 20 of the 30. You had a table at 10 gun shows this year that we can find records for...therefore we presume that you must have sold at least 200 guns this year. The precedent is already there for such shenanigans, so I see no reason why it can't be used here.

*Edit: I almost forgot to mention that in the event that the BATFags can call in the 4473s, there is no reason why they can't take the total of every gun you ever owned, and when you can't produce the guns, determine that you sold them in a recent and compact period of time.

3. The kitchen table dealer wasn't pushed out by difficulty so much as fees increased to the point of it becoming cost-prohibitive. The BATFags if I am not mistaken set their fees. Let's see how this push works out compared with any other push regarding the BATFags.

4. Do you not think that these same people ALREADY oppose Obama? It might **** them off a bit more, but I don't see where the net change is.

Feckless? Laugh at him? That sounds like a recipe for disaster to me.

 

[bwframe]

I wish I could Kirk. I really do. He is a reflection of what is happening in society right now or he would not be in the big boy chair. I do think that is what really frightens me the most. Those fools put him there 2 times.

Me too. I'm a Kirk fan, but I'm not buying that this is nothing.
This action is a trial balloon. One if not fought tooth and nail will bring another and another. All at a time when the Dem candidate is running on more gun control.

The Dems are trying to change the narrative the same as they successfully have with immigration equalling bigotry, abortion equalling women's health and healthcare equalling free.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Not saying that it should not be opposed. Not saying we should not punch back twice as hard.

I am saying that there is no reason to go running around the conference table flailing our hands.