gun store dumb gun handling

[CountryBoy19]

I don't believe you do.

You're certainly entitled to your opinion... but that is all it is...

My rebuttal to you, he and anyone else has yet to be answered:

So, are the 4 Rules really rules any more when you get to pick and choose when and how they apply?

You point your gun at yourself every day and have never shot yourself. Does that mean no one ever shoots themselves doing the exact same thing?

If I pick up my gun, with my finger going right to the trigger, how many years of the gun not going off before that becomes the new rule?

They have been answered if you read the replies.

Sure, rules can still be rules and you can still choose when to apply them. Basketball rules don't apply to the game of football do they? Likewise, rules that were set out specifically for use on the shooting range don't always apply to everyday scenarios. They can still be rules, they just don't always apply to every single situation outside of the specific circumstances where they're designed to work.

I think it is quite evident by my earlier example that the 4 rules were not meant to be applied everywhere every time because if they were then nearly every single shooter that claims so is a hypocrite.

Tried to rep, but maxed out for the 24hour time.

I've been watching this thread and have come to this conclusion:

I don't even know where to start with this post. You obviously don't even grasp the concept of the point I was trying to make.

those claiming the gun was "common sense verified" empty have the trigger was pulled can only make such a claim because the shotgun was pump. However, would YOU personally be willing to bet, based on behavior and actions of the father/son that they knew it was a pump and had to be cycled manually before another round could be loaded? What if their ignorance extended to the operation and they had done the same thing with a semi-auto version? Would you still be so cavalier about their actions then?

Why does it make a difference if it's a pump or an auto? Pump, auto, bolt, they're all the same, it doesn't matter. Once the hammer falls it's down. There is no way it's getting cocked again until the action is cycled. Therefore, when the hammer fell the first time, the gun was rendered inoperable.

And who's to say that the tube didn't hold a round, was missed in the initial check, and when daddy (or was it the son) slammed the bolt home, he just created a disaster waiting to happen? Or that it wasn't a bad primer and the next trigger pull will be sufficient to set things in motion?

Uh, we know for a fact that he didn't because the gun didn't fire when he pulled the trigger the first time. The next trigger pull wouldn't have done anything because the action needs cycled again for the hammer to fall on it again... no?

Where does your common sense control for those variables? In truth, your common sense could be putting people in danger because relying on common sense necessarily mean you have to ASSUME things. And we all know what happens when we assume...."I thought it was unloaded."

Y'all forgive me for not relying on someone's common sense when he says that's all he needs to be safe around firearms. The entire idea is contradictory and inconsistent.

The 4 rules exist for a simple reason: they work. They remove the human element which is so disastrously prone to ****ing up. In the scenario above where the shotgun is an autoloader and the father/son perform the exact same actions, can you not see how foolhardy it would be to rely on their common sense? And yet, regardless of their cognitive ability, if they simply followed the 4 rules, there'd be (practically) no risk of death, and little risk of injury.

It's not ignorant to assume that every firearm is loaded. It's prudent. A kid I went to school with shot himself in the head because he thought it was unloaded and proceeded to disregard the 4 rules. He'd be alive today (all else being equal) had he simply taken the time to adhere to those rules. All those stories you hear about friends shooting friends thinking the gun was unloaded aren't coincidence. They're FAILURES of common sense.

Please, common sense advocates, feel free to put yourself at risk any way you choose. But don't ask me to accept your standard of common sense when it comes to the safety of me or my family. I don't know you from Adam. And even if I did, you're still human and you can make mistakes. I'm not willing to risk my life or limb for your pride or arrogance. And it's rude of you to expect that I do.

I'm not arguing about pointing a gun at yourself and pulling the trigger at the same time (hence me banging my head on the wall in reply to jack's post). I'm talking about being swept by a firearm that was proven to be empty/inoperable. The OP made no mention of the condition of the firearm changing after the father dropped the hammer.

Your post wasn't exactly clear, what part do you have the problem with? Is it the fact that the father pointed the firearm in a safe direction and pulled the trigger, or the part where he and/or the son swept some people in the shop with a firearm that was previously rendered inoperable?

That's the common sense I'm talking about. A level of common sense that you clearly don't have, and you can't even comprehend.

Have a nice day to the both of you!

 

[bwframe]

You're certainly entitled to your opinion... but that is all it is...

Its not my opinion. It's the Four Rules of Firearms Safety. This is how we conduct ourselves when handling firearms, period. I didn't think it up, Col Cooper did many years ago. He put the rules together because "common sense" wasn't working.

Sure, rules can still be rules and you can still choose when to apply them. Basketball rules don't apply to the game of football do they? Likewise, rules that were set out specifically for use on the shooting range don't always apply to everyday scenarios. They can still be rules, they just don't always apply to every single situation outside of the specific circumstances where they're designed to work.

I think it is quite evident by my earlier example that the 4 rules were not meant to be applied everywhere every time because if they were then nearly every single shooter that claims so is a hypocrite.

Now we are talking opinion! Your mistaken opinion.
It is only in your mind that there are separate rules for the range from anywhere else. We are not talking about playing with balls here. We are talking dangerous tools, that when handled poorly, can unintentionally maim or kill.

There is nothing you have posted in this thread that could not have been done safely following the four rules. Holstered and cased firearms are safe.

I will give to you the fact that following the four rules takes some real discipline and thought. Discipline and thought that may well go beyond what some can handle. If that is your case, I don't know what to tell you, other than it's just not safe for you to handle firearms.

You are looking for an excuse to cover your sloppy gun handling and lack of muzzle discipline. You are just not gonna get that here. You will never be given permission to allow your muzzle to cover anything you are not prepared to destroy.

 

[choppers]

I see alot of poor gun handling from customers also. I dont have any fancy titles to my name but i have taught my son to never put his finger on the trigger of a gun that he's lookin at unless he plans on shootin it. Just lay your finger straight along the side of the frame instead. He brings it to my attention every time he sees someone stick there finger on the trigger at a gun store.

 

[88GT]

Your post wasn't exactly clear, what part do you have the problem with? Is it the fact that the father pointed the firearm in a safe direction and pulled the trigger, or the part where he and/or the son swept some people in the shop with a firearm that was previously rendered inoperable?

And you claim I can't comprehend anything.

Any reference to the OP's scenario was used strictly for illustrative purposes. It was quite clear that my "problem" is with people like you who think your common sense trumps basic, proven safe gun-handling practices. I could add your arrogant disdain for those of us who frown on the idea that violation of those rules is acceptable in any circumstances, but to keep the thread on topic, let's just stick to the first one.

The bottom line is this: your only justification for your position is that YOU think you're safe enough whether or not you follow the 4 rules. There are about 6 billion other people you can't vouch for in that regard. How does that give you any credibility for your stance, even if I were to assume for the sake of argument that your level of common sense was sufficient?

Historically, it's the people who felt that simple common sense was sufficient that end up in situations that could otherwise have been avoided had they simply followed the 4 rules. The 4 rules practically guarantee an outcome by statistically limiting the chances for screw up. (Never say never, right? ) Your common sense can't do that, in part because it makes an assumption from the get-go that a gun might be safe when it's not.

Listen, it's not that you want to use common sense in gun handling. It's that you seem to be subscribing to an idea that it can take the place of the 4 rules rather than be used in conjunction with them. I'm not so naive as to think that all 4 rules can be followed every time for every gun. But neither do I think that it's acceptable to disregard all of them because I can't practically follow one of them.

I can give you a thousand reasons why assuming a gun is unloaded and disregarding the 4 rules is a bad idea. Can you give me one reason why assuming it's loaded and following them is bad? If I'm wrong, nobody gets hurts. What if you're wrong?

That's the common sense I'm talking about. A level of common sense that you clearly don't have, and you can't even comprehend.

Oh, I comprehend quite well. You've got an inflated opinion of yourself and your abilities, a disrespectful disregard for the opinions of others. That about cover it?

 

[88GT]

Uh, we know for a fact that he didn't because the gun didn't fire when he pulled the trigger the first time. The next trigger pull wouldn't have done anything because the action needs cycled again for the hammer to fall on it again... no?

Didn't realize a portion of your quote got deleted in my editing, so I'm picking it up here.

We know AFTER THE FACT!!!! That's not a very good time to find out a shell was missed in the inspection when JoeBob decides to point and pull the trigger. Common sense misses the shell, allows him to shoot. Still think it's okay for him to disregard the 4 rules in favor of common sense in that scenario?

I'm not arguing about pointing a gun at yourself and pulling the trigger at the same time (hence me banging my head on the wall in reply to jack's post). I'm talking about being swept by a firearm that was proven to be empty/inoperable. The OP made no mention of the condition of the firearm changing after the father dropped the hammer.

I am. If your position is so superior, then you wouldn't mind being the test case. Are you willing to bet your life that you're right, relying on nothing more than assumptions? Willing to bet that others are as equally well-endowed in the common sense department that you are absolutely comfortable being on the business end of their aiming practices? I'm not. And quite frankly, I think it's presumptuous and bad-mannered for you to make that decision for other people as well. Goes back to my last paragraph: if you wish to operate on a common sense standard for your gun-handling, be my guest. But limit those who are affected by any potential fall-out to you and you alone, please.

 

[crispy]

He simply refuses to put himself in the shoes of other people who might be in the store that don't know what he knows.

Total lack of common courtesy.

 

[lane440]

All i can say is if i ever have a laps in mental function while playing with a gun please stop me , wheather you are right or wrong , i would stop and rethink about what i was doing and probably thank you for being concerend about my safety.

 

[pitbull1]

I always feel retarded when handling a new weapon.

 

[pitbull1]

I did just start shooting over the summer, maybe the nervousness goes away with time.

 

[IndyGunSafety]

Why do people who have knowledge or proper training not convey a lesson when there is an opportunity to teach, but then complain about others' bad behavior? If you had explained the improper gun handling issue at that moment and the father accepted your instruction, that would have been a lesson that kid would not have forgotten. Even if the father had been a jerk, the kid would still remember it the next time, leaving him with the decision to be safe or not. That also could have been a lesson for the store owner.

Yeah, I bet they all thought you were a cook, because you didn't leave them with a choice. "I am a licensed NRA, shotgun instructor, a Hunter Ed instructor, a 4h Shotgun leader, Ross Camp graduate, and a Boy Scout Shotgun Merit badge instructor." Wow, it appears you could have taught the whole store a lot.

Please correct me if I do something like that. It's easy to go into a gun store and think the guns are unloaded, but I am always afraid someone inserted a shell as a "joke"!

Whoe cares if the gun was cleared? Why is it people do not understand the words EVERY GUN IS LOADED! IT DOESN'T MATTER IF YOU JUST CLEARED IT! If you treat guns differently when you clear them versus when they are loaded YOU ARE AN ACCIDENT WAITING TO HAPPEN. EVERY GUN IS LOADED ALWAYS!

Que, you know I'd say something.... because I do on a regular basis. But it's a tricky situation. I've been a teacher all my life, and one of my biggest faults is I DONT KNOW WHEN TO STOP TEACHING. Some people are insulted by this and as a result I may never see them in my shop again.

But interestingly enough I had a couple come in a while back because the husband wanted to sign the wife up to take a class. As we were talking (they were also looking at guns) he was handling an XD and pointed it at my belly a few times. So I asked if he would also be interested in the class. As he proceeded to tell me his experience I butted in and said "I only ask because you have pointed that gun at me three times in the last minute. He got a little red and began to back pedal.... "Well I would never do that with a loaded gun..." He was not amused. I figured I'd never see them again. I was thrilled that his wife bought the XD, AND they BOTH signed up for the basic course!

After the course the man stopped by and bought another gun. A few weeks later he brought his son in to buy his first handgun. The next day he and his wife came in to buy her ANOTHER one.

What I am getting at here is that some people take ANY correction as being talked down to. Shop owners are business people. Insulting customers has to be done with great care, and even then you may never see the person again. Honestly I thought it took a big man to take what I said to him, compose himself, and reevaluate his own actions and take the correction. Many people I know would NOT be able to do that, and thus I lose a customer. Customers don't want to be lectured so it really is a tough balancing act. I cringe every time I correct a customer on gun handling because you just never know how they will take it.

Last weekend a young couple came in with a baby, to buy mom a new gun. They had both signed up for the Basic Pistol Course and their class was coming up. While handling a handgun she pointed it at her baby's head! I about crapped myself! The husband saw my face and as I moved to correct her he said something to her about it. No biggie. I'm in this to train people.

But then the man decided to draw his handgun (They both have LTCH's) to discuss something about it. HE pointed the LOADED gun at his wife, dropped the magazine and went to rack the slide to clear it! As soon as I could utter words I raised my voice and said "PUT THAT AWAY!" (My shop policy on loaded guns is: Don't show me yours and I won't show you mine!) He realized what he did and I told them both that after the course they would be very aware of muzzle direction and would hopefully not make those errors again. These people are taking all the right steps in obtaining safety education which is more than I can say for many of the people out there. They know they have a lot to learn. It's the people who THINK they know... when they don't have a clue that really concerns me.

These are teachable moments and I try to take advantage of them when I can. But some people don't take it well. I would say 75% of the people that come through the shop don't really understand and apply the gun safety rules.

Training is the answer. We all make mistakes. Training helps mitigate the human factor and thus reduces error.

Sitting where I sit and seeing what I see every day with gun handling, it's a bigger challange every day to stay on the side of "no state training requirement". I'd hate to see the government get involved. But if people won't take the initiative to learn safe gun handling on their own, it's only a matter of time.

 

[buzzined]

Question from someone who is not a seasoned vet with guns. When I am at a gunstore looking at a gun I always point the gun down at the floor, seeing how it feels in my hand making sure I don't point it at or sweep anybody. But I do dry fire the gun after verifying the chamber is empty. I do this not to make sure the gun goes click, since you are usually looking at a floor model from the case not the NIB you are going to get, but to see if I like the way the trigger feels. I have ran into a few guns I will not buy cause of the trigger and have heard people here complain bout triggers, so I want to know before I spend my hard earned money on it.

Ok enough rambling my question is am I following poor gun handling dry firing a gun in a safe direction after I verified it was empty?

 

[CampingJosh]

Whoe cares if the gun was cleared? Why is it people do not understand the words EVERY GUN IS LOADED! IT DOESN'T MATTER IF YOU JUST CLEARED IT! If you treat guns differently when you clear them versus when they are loaded YOU ARE AN ACCIDENT WAITING TO HAPPEN. EVERY GUN IS LOADED ALWAYS!

I really disagree here. To me, this is like saying "Every knife is double-bladed." When you just cleared it, you can treat it like it's unloaded.

Now, if I clear a gun and then take my eyes off of it for any reason, then I check again. When I first take possession of a firearm, I establish the condition of the chamber. If it's empty, then it's empty, and it can be treated as empty!

Out of courtesy, I never make you treat the gun I'm holding as empty (point it at you), but I'm not afraid to point a firearm that I have verified to be unloaded at my head. I do this every time I consider buying a used firearm, and I wouldn't put money out for anything without doing this. How else can you see the condition of the bore without disassembling it?

I have a friend who got upset when I swept him with a shotgun barrel that wasn't even connected to the gun. The gun was lying on the table in front of him; I was holding just the barrel. Is this not over the top?

 

[wetidlerjr]

...I have a friend who got upset when I swept him with a shotgun barrel that wasn't even connected to the gun. The gun was lying on the table in front of him; I was holding just the barrel. Is this not over the top?

Yes, over the top but his standards are his.
The idea for me is simple. I will not point any gun at anyone other than myself (barrel inspection, etc.) at any time, anywhere. I don't care if you, me and the UPS man cleared it; don't point it at anyone. Even if I watch YOU clear it, my pointing it at anyone just reinforces bad behavior. You clear it; hand it to me and I clear it. I hand it to the UPS man and he clears it. Are we anal ? Yes, but we are alive, unharmed as well as being anal.
"Err on the side of caution."

I'm outa here before the "devil comes down on me".

 

[CountryBoy19]

Its not my opinion.

Actually, yes, it is an opinion, period.

Now we are talking opinion! Your mistaken opinion.

It's not anymore of an opinion than your opinion above.

Holstered and cased firearms are safe.

Oh really.... hmm... let me get this straight, holstered and cased firearms are safe. How so? How do you know they are safe? And how exactly are they any more safe than a firearm with the hammer dropped on an empty chamber?

You are looking for an excuse to cover your sloppy gun handling and lack of muzzle discipline.

No, I'm not. I posted because the OP was making a mountain out of a mole hill rather than using a little common sense and just letting it pass by.

And you claim I can't comprehend anything.

Actually, I never claimed that at all. I just claimed that the level of common sense I am using is one that you either #1 can't even comprehend, or #2 you refuse to use it. And I'm obviously not the only one that feels that way. My entire rep page is plastered with comments like, "Thank you for actually using a little common sense" and "Thank you for bringing a little common sense into this". As a matter of fact, I only have 2 neg reps from this thread, 1 of them is from a newbie that still wears diapers and the other was for insulting a member, not for for being wrong or not using common sense etc.

Any reference to the OP's scenario was used strictly for illustrative purposes. It was quite clear that my "problem" is with people like you who think your common sense trumps basic, proven safe gun-handling practices.

Where did I say that? I believe you're mistaken.

I could add your arrogant disdain for those of us who frown on the idea that violation of those rules is acceptable in any circumstances, but to keep the thread on topic, let's just stick to the first one.

Actually, I don't have an arrogant disdain of people that frown on the breaking of rules. I'm just trying to point out that those rules aren't meant to be used 100% of the time everywhere, illustrated by my basketball/football example and the cased/holstered firearms example.

Tell me this, if there is absolutely zero-tolerance to making exceptions to the rules then how can one justify cased or holstered firearms being pointed at others?

The bottom line is this: your only justification for your position is that YOU think you're safe enough whether or not you follow the 4 rules. There are about 6 billion other people you can't vouch for in that regard. How does that give you any credibility for your stance, even if I were to assume for the sake of argument that your level of common sense was sufficient?

I'm not trying to justify anything. Never did I say that I would do as the father/son in the OP did, as a matter of fact, I won't do that out of principle. But, I think the OP was overreacting and I voiced my opinion.

Historically, it's the people who felt that simple common sense was sufficient that end up in situations that could otherwise have been avoided had they simply followed the 4 rules. The 4 rules practically guarantee an outcome by statistically limiting the chances for screw up. (Never say never, right? ) Your common sense can't do that, in part because it makes an assumption from the get-go that a gun might be safe when it's not.

Yup, you're right, when the gun is loaded or the condition is unknown. But when a gun is rendered completely 100% inoperable then yes, common sense can guarantee the outcome.

Listen, it's not that you want to use common sense in gun handling. It's that you seem to be subscribing to an idea that it can take the place of the 4 rules rather than be used in conjunction with them. I'm not so naive as to think that all 4 rules can be followed every time for every gun. But neither do I think that it's acceptable to disregard all of them because I can't practically follow one of them.

Once again, where did I state that common sense takes the place of the 4 rules or trumps them?

I can give you a thousand reasons why assuming a gun is unloaded and disregarding the 4 rules is a bad idea. Can you give me one reason why assuming it's loaded and following them is bad? If I'm wrong, nobody gets hurts. What if you're wrong?

Do you really think that is a proper comparison? I'm talking about a gun that is 100% inoperable. Why should I have to give you a scenario why breaking the rules with a loaded gun is acceptable?

Btw, I can give you an example just as a matter of principle ... self-defense is a perfect example of a situation where you may point a firearm at somebody (breaking a rule) and the outcome is not bad.

Oh, I comprehend quite well. You've got an inflated opinion of yourself and your abilities, a disrespectful disregard for the opinions of others. That about cover it?

You're certainly entitled to opinions... I respectfully disagree and so do many other members here.

 

[JetGirl]

You are looking for an excuse to cover your sloppy gun handling and lack of muzzle discipline. You are just not gonna get that here. You will never be given permission to allow your muzzle to cover anything you are not prepared to destroy.

I'll buy that.

I see alot of poor gun handling from customers also. I dont have any fancy titles to my name but i have taught my son to never put his finger on the trigger of a gun that he's lookin at unless he plans on shootin it. Just lay your finger straight along the side of the frame instead. He brings it to my attention every time he sees someone stick there finger on the trigger at a gun store.

Kudos to you for teaching your kiddo the safe/smart way.

 

[JetGirl]

Oh really.... hmm... let me get this straight, holstered and cased firearms are safe. How so? How do you know they are safe? And how exactly are they any more safe than a firearm with the hammer dropped on an empty chamber?

Because there ain't no BOOGER HOOK on the dangblasted BANG SWITCH.
That's how.

 

[MTC]

Originally Posted by 88GT:

And you claim I can't comprehend anything.

Actually, I never claimed that at all.

You obviously don't even grasp the concept of the point I was trying to make...

...That's the common sense I'm talking about. A level of common sense that you clearly don't have, and you can't even comprehend.

I just claimed that the level of common sense I am using is one that you either #1 can't even comprehend, or #2 you refuse to use it.

 

[crispy]

I'm confused. How can you possibly know that the father didn't check the chamber prior to closing the bolt?

Ok, we have now verified that the firearm is, in fact, unloaded.

Could be... but most likely not... shot has very, very little energy remaining after a ricochet. Even if it did ricochet it should scatter enough that any strays should just cause a superficial wound... lethal... not likely...

Gun is still verified to be empty, unless the bolt has been cycled.

Same as above, still verified empty.



Gun is still verified empty...

I still don't get it...

I went back to your original post and re-read just to see if you might have a point. You don't. You're still wrong.

What you absolutely cannot grasp is that while YOU may have been watching the father and son, and you might know the condition of the gun, there might be another customer five feet away from you that had his head buried in a case. How do you think they'll feel when they turn around and see the father/son pointing a gun at them and pulling the trigger?

This whole thread has been about YOU, your common sense, your comfort level. Sorry bub, I don't care.

It's not just about YOU!

The father and son CANNOT be allowed to disrespect other people in the store. If that isn't clear in your book of "common sense", you need a new book...

 

[printcraft]

Be safe and always follow safe handling techniques.

Remember, one "Awe " wipes out 1000 "Atta-boys!"

.......

It's not just about YOU!

..........

You mean the universe does not revolve around my butt?!?
Man, you have really shaken my world view.

 

[hip shot]

To Indy Gun Safty; very good reply,,,,,, next time I am in the neighborhood I will stop by