gun store dumb gun handling

[JetGirl]

in a gun-shop where the operator most likely checked the chamber

I think it might be the "most likely" part with which the issue is taken ^...

 

[CountryBoy19]

I think it might be the "most likely" part with which the issue is taken ^...

That may be, but immediately afterwards it was verified that the chamber was empty and the gun absolutely could not possibly fire after that.

 

[CountryBoy19]

I can see where you are coming from. You have to use a little common sense. But for a minute, just think of this from another angle. Why is there a rule to "treat every gun as if it were loaded"? The reason is that if you are in the habit of sweeping the muzzle or placing your finger on the trigger because "you know" that the gun is unload, it has the potential to become a habit. And when it becomes a habit, the chances increase for an accident to take place.

Now with your experience, I am sure that you are safe with a firearm. And you bring up a very good point that the 4 rules need to be seasoned with common sense. But also realize that bad actions can become habits, and bad habits can lead to accidents. IMO, that is a common sense rule that should trum all other common sense.

Here is just a short personal story. I lived in Michigan for a short time, and had to take a class to obtain my Concealed Pistols License. At the class, the instructor brought in several of the fake blue and red glocks for demonstration purposes. At one point he had each of us handle the prop, and when it came to my turn, I placed my finger on the trigger. He reprimanded me (in a kind manner) for doing so. Did I know the gun was unloaded? Yep. Did I think it was going to go off in my hand? Nope. But the point was this...dont make a habit doing something that you would not do with an actual loaded gun.

I have 2 young boys. I buy them toy guns all the time. I always tell them "We don't shoot these at people, and we don't point these at people." Why do I do this? To ingrain good habits in them so when they are old enough to have a real gun, they can be safe.

Just my . Btw, pos rep Countryboy19 for sticking to your "guns".

Yes, I can understand the habit thing... I don't typically point firearms at others. My point was just that the OP came on here quite literally freaking out about being swept by a gun that was verified to be unloaded and wasn't capable of firing. Yes, bad practice, but it seemed like he had the feeling/thought that he could have been killed. That certainly wasn't the case. I was just pointing it out to him. Yes, they broke some rules, but apply a little common sense, that nothing harmful could have come from that specific situation, and I would say all is well.

Had I walked in after the father had dry-fired the gun the situation, from my stand point would have been different.

I guess the root of it all is, "what was the point in complaining about it?"

I'm tired of arguing about it, some people just don't get the point I was trying to make, others do. My entire page of rep comments is nearly all positive rep from this thread so I'm clearly not the only one that holds this opinion.

 

[cedartop]

Can't believe I am wading into this. Countryboy, I can't leave you hanging, I am one of those who repped you for this.(positive.) I understand completely what you are saying. No one here is advocating being unsafe. We all want people to be safe around firearms, I would say especially instructors. But, c'mon guys, Col. Cooper was a man, not God. These rules were not handed down in stone on a mountain. Are they good guidelines? yes, but only that. There can be many exceptions. Like someone else here said, the unloaded rule we are talking about often ends with "until you have personally verified it is unloaded". What do you think soldiers and police in countries that are less well off than us do when they train. They don't have blue guns or airsoft, everyone verifies that the guns are unloaded and shows them to their partner and one other person to confirm it. Guess what, then they do dry work with them. Not only that, but sometimes they then actually proceed to point them at each other.Gasp! Horrors! Don't get me wrong,if you come to one of my classes, I won't be pointing a gun at you, unloaded or otherwise.

While we are on this, I might as well tell you how you will see the four rules taught at an SI class.

1. Treat all guns as if they were loaded. Notice I didn't say, all guns are always loaded. We are rational thinking human beings. To check a gun and confirm it unloaded, and then say it is loaded is ignorant.

2. Don't be careless with your gun muzzle. Notice I didn't say, don't cover anything your are not willing to destroy, why? thats pretty near impossible.

3. Keep your finger off the trigger until you have made a concious decision to shoot. What? what about till your sights are on the target. We don't always use our sights do we.

4. Be sure of your target and what is beyond it. Why do we put it this way? There can be many instances where your background is unsafe but you still must shoot.

* all gun handling begins and ends with a chamber check.

Let the fur fly.

 

[hip shot]

Can't believe I am wading into this. Countryboy, I can't leave you hanging, I am one of those who repped you for this.(positive.) I understand completely what you are saying. No one here is advocating being unsafe. We all want people to be safe around firearms, I would say especially instructors. But, c'mon guys, Col. Cooper was a man, not God. These rules were not handed down in stone on a mountain. Are they good guidelines? yes, but only that. There can be many exceptions. Like someone else here said, the unloaded rule we are talking about often ends with "until you have personally verified it is unloaded". What do you think soldiers and police in countries that are less well off than us do when they train. They don't have blue guns or airsoft, everyone verifies that the guns are unloaded and shows them to their partner and one other person to confirm it. Guess what, then they do dry work with them. Not only that, but sometimes they then actually proceed to point them at each other.Gasp! Horrors! Don't get me wrong,if you come to one of my classes, I won't be pointing a gun at you, unloaded or otherwise.

While we are on this, I might as well tell you how you will see the four rules taught at an SI class.

1. Treat all guns as if they were loaded. Notice I didn't say, all guns are always loaded. We are rational thinking human beings. To check a gun and confirm it unloaded, and then say it is loaded is ignorant.

2. Don't be careless with your gun muzzle. Notice I didn't say, don't cover anything your are not willing to destroy, why? thats pretty near impossible.

3. Keep your finger off the trigger until you have made a concious decision to shoot. What? what about till your sights are on the target. We don't always use our sights do we.

4. Be sure of your target and what is beyond it. Why do we put it this way? There can be many instances where your background is unsafe but you still must shoot.

* all gun handling begins and ends with a chamber check.

Let the fur fly.

This is one of the best responses yet. As an instrutor I have had shotguns pointed at me to check gun fit, but it is after myself the student and all by standers have verified the empty breach, in the case of an automatic we stuff a rag in the breech. And no it does not happen all the time. Even if it did it would not change anyting. Also the Dad was not checking functionality to see if he wanted to buy it, it was his gun........

I will NEVER casually tolerate a shotgun with a closed bolt pointed at me EVER........

 

[bwframe]

My questions from above were not answered. I rephrased them so they might be better understood, (still offering my apologies for being grammar handicapped.) I'll toss them out to all stating that it's unnecessary to follow Col Coopers 4 rules;

So, are the 4 Rules really rules any more when you get to pick and choose when and how they apply?

You point your gun at yourself every day and have never shot yourself. Does that mean no one ever shoots themselves doing the exact same thing?

If I pick up my gun, with my finger going right to the trigger, how many years of the gun not going off before that becomes the new rule?

 

[mcwulf30]

Interesting........

Two sides of a coin being rep here.......both instilling the same wisdom.

"Teachers should teach without resolve. No wisdom can come from a book buried in the ground"

 

[Jack Ryan]

Just wanted to let him know how things work around here. If you leave neg rep, expect to get it back, it's as simple as that. As a matter of fact, it even says that right after you leave rep, "May you be lucky enough to get the same rep back" or something to that effect.

I'm not going to get into a p***ing match with you. We obviously hold differing opinions. You've been indoctrinated with the "no exceptions" rule, and many millions of shooters have been practicing the "common sense" rule for decades without injury. To each his own, I'll stick to my common sense.

What is a guy supposed to do when he goes into a gun-shop, take the gun around to every single person in the shop to have them check if it's clear before he dry-fires it? People would look at him like he's fallen off his rocker... what about a place like Cabelas or Gander? How far away from the counter do you need to take the gun to have others check clear on it? Should you take it all the way to the front of the store to have those cashiers check clear as well?

My point is, just use common sense in the matter, that is all.

I don't care WHAT he does with it so long as it's NOT POINTED AT ME OR PEOPLE I CARE ABOUT. If he needs to point it at some one to test the trigger and he feels it's safe to do so, he can point it at his own head.

I wonder how many people argueing it's just fine test the triggers in gun shops with it pointed AT THEIR OWN HEAD? I've sure never SEEN any one do it. They always have it pointed away from themselves when they feel it's just fine to do it.

 

[CountryBoy19]

I don't care WHAT he does with it so long as it's NOT POINTED AT ME OR PEOPLE I CARE ABOUT. If he needs to point it at some one to test the trigger and he feels it's safe to do so, he can point it at his own head.

I wonder how many people argueing it's just fine test the triggers in gun shops with it pointed AT THEIR OWN HEAD? I've sure never SEEN any one do it. They always have it pointed away from themselves when they feel it's just fine to do it.

Oh come on Jack, you're much smarter than that. I know that you can clearly tell the difference between pointing it at somebody while testing the trigger and pointing it somebody after testing the trigger (which verified that the gun was empty and rendered it unable to fire). If you aren't smart enough to tell the difference between those two situations then move along, because I'm not going to argue with another brick wall.

 

[Jack Ryan]

Oh come on Jack, you're much smarter than that. I know that you can clearly tell the difference between pointing it at somebody while testing the trigger and pointing it somebody after testing the trigger (which verified that the gun was empty and rendered it unable to fire). If you aren't smart enough to tell the difference between those two situations then move along, because I'm not going to argue with another brick wall.

Just seems funny to me, this thread is jam packed FULL of people with all kinds of check outs, tests, and double secret confirmations of how perfectly safe it is for them to be doing this or that, but dang if I've ever seen that FIRST GUY IN A GUN SHOP turn to his own kid, put that gun to his head and check out that trigger. They sure are mighty free with the trigger, pointing, testing, excuses and all that with it pointed any where else but them selves or some one who walked through the door with them.

Don't point the f...... thing at me and don't point it at someone who came through the door WITH me or there's going to be a problem. Far as I'm concerned any gun I see in someone else's hands is loaded and I don't believe a word of what they say.

You can believe this though, my gun IS loaded.

 

[CountryBoy19]

 

[crispy]

Just seems funny to me, this thread is jam packed FULL of people with all kinds of check outs, tests, and double secret confirmations of how perfectly safe it is for them to be doing this or that, but dang if I've ever seen that FIRST GUY IN A GUN SHOP turn to his own kid, put that gun to his head and check out that trigger. They sure are mighty free with the trigger, pointing, testing, excuses and all that with it pointed any where else but them selves or some one who walked through the door with them.

Don't point the f...... thing at me and don't point it at someone who came through the door WITH me or there's going to be a problem. Far as I'm concerned any gun I see in someone else's hands is loaded and I don't believe a word of what they say.

Ditto

When I'm at Gander Mountain, I don't point a gun towards the front of the store. Because there might be someone way up by the shoes seeing me point a gun in their direction. Even though the guy behind the counter cleared it and I checked it and I KNOW there is no way I could shoot anyone, I don't do it out of COMMON COURTESY! Period. Never. Never ever.

 

[Keith_Indy]

So I say nicely "will you please open the bolt on that thing you are making me nervous" Then all three of them look at me and the kid says "what" Now I am in the position of having to explain that I think they are a bunch of lousy gun handlers and not safe (having to have some sort of a conversation with them) or just leaving.

Could it be that he simply didn't hear what you say, and restating your request would have solved the problem? Or just saying, please don't point that in my direction with the bolt closed?

 

[bwframe]

The problem is that you cannot win this argument. There really is no argument. You are either safe with firearms or you are NOT.

There are no laws against sloppy dangerous gun handling until something goes terribly bad. However, don't expect to promote this irresponsible behavior without being challenged by those who know better.

 

[kingpin1779]

unloaded gun

people have been killed with unloaded guns !!! i do not like guns pointed in my direction loaded or not !! the owner of the store should have stopped that pronto.

 

[CountryBoy19]

The problem is that you cannot win this argument. There really is no argument. You are either safe with firearms or you are NOT.

There are no laws against sloppy dangerous gun handling until something goes terribly bad. However, don't expect to promote this irresponsible behavior without being challenged by those who know better.

I wasn't even talking to you, and you clearly don't even get the point I'm trying to make to Jack. I don't give **** about winning any argument. I couldn't care less about it because I know what is safe and what isn't. I also know what a hypocrite is, and a lot of people in this thread are hypocrites...

You clearly had no rebuttal to Cedartops post otherwise you would have posted it. You can't win an argument if you don't even attempt it.

 

[bwframe]

...because I know what is safe and what isn't.

I don't believe you do.

No one following Col Coopers 4 Rules has ever been accidentally injured or killed, period. It's just not possible.

Countless people are shot "accidentally" every year. I'm sure they believed they had common sense too.

You clearly had no rebuttal to Cedartops post otherwise you would have posted it. You can't win an argument if you don't even attempt it.

My rebuttal to you, he and anyone else has yet to be answered:

So, are the 4 Rules really rules any more when you get to pick and choose when and how they apply?

You point your gun at yourself every day and have never shot yourself. Does that mean no one ever shoots themselves doing the exact same thing?

If I pick up my gun, with my finger going right to the trigger, how many years of the gun not going off before that becomes the new rule?

 

[crispy]

because I know what is safe and what isn't.

That's the point you don't get. It's not about you. It doesn't matter what YOU know.

The guy over there in the store doesn't know. He doesn't know you. He didn't get a chance to check the gun. He doesn't trust you. He shouldn't have to.

You cannot justify pointing a gun that you have your hands on at someone else... ever.

 

[88GT]

The problem is that you cannot win this argument. There really is no argument. You are either safe with firearms or you are NOT.

There are no laws against sloppy dangerous gun handling until something goes terribly bad. However, don't expect to promote this irresponsible behavior without being challenged by those who know better.

Tried to rep, but maxed out for the 24hour time.

I've been watching this thread and have come to this conclusion: those claiming the gun was "common sense verified" empty have the trigger was pulled can only make such a claim because the shotgun was pump. However, would YOU personally be willing to bet, based on behavior and actions of the father/son that they knew it was a pump and had to be cycled manually before another round could be loaded? What if their ignorance extended to the operation and they had done the same thing with a semi-auto version? Would you still be so cavalier about their actions then?

And who's to say that the tube didn't hold a round, was missed in the initial check, and when daddy (or was it the son) slammed the bolt home, he just created a disaster waiting to happen? Or that it wasn't a bad primer and the next trigger pull will be sufficient to set things in motion?

Where does your common sense control for those variables? In truth, your common sense could be putting people in danger because relying on common sense necessarily mean you have to ASSUME things. And we all know what happens when we assume...."I thought it was unloaded."

Y'all forgive me for not relying on someone's common sense when he says that's all he needs to be safe around firearms. The entire idea is contradictory and inconsistent.

The 4 rules exist for a simple reason: they work. They remove the human element which is so disastrously prone to ****ing up. In the scenario above where the shotgun is an autoloader and the father/son perform the exact same actions, can you not see how foolhardy it would be to rely on their common sense? And yet, regardless of their cognitive ability, if they simply followed the 4 rules, there'd be (practically) no risk of death, and little risk of injury.

It's not ignorant to assume that every firearm is loaded. It's prudent. A kid I went to school with shot himself in the head because he thought it was unloaded and proceeded to disregard the 4 rules. He'd be alive today (all else being equal) had he simply taken the time to adhere to those rules. All those stories you hear about friends shooting friends thinking the gun was unloaded aren't coincidence. They're FAILURES of common sense.

Please, common sense advocates, feel free to put yourself at risk any way you choose. But don't ask me to accept your standard of common sense when it comes to the safety of me or my family. I don't know you from Adam. And even if I did, you're still human and you can make mistakes. I'm not willing to risk my life or limb for your pride or arrogance. And it's rude of you to expect that I do.

 

[Bendrx]

Wow, this thread still lives....anyways, can't we just all agree that it's incredible rude to point a firearm at somebody, and even ruder to pull the trigger?

The police shoot folks over pointing water nozzels and you really truly want to point a real firearm at folks and pull the trigger? Seriously? Doesn't get more "justified shoot" than that. If you'd point a gun at me and do that, even after "proven" unloaded then surely you'll do that to a cop right? And if you wouldn't do it to a cop without warning then clearly there is a reason why it shouldn't be done to anyone else.