gun store dumb gun handling

[CountryBoy19]

I'm confused. How can you possibly know that the father didn't check the chamber prior to closing the bolt?

I walk into a rural gun store and a kid about 20 and his
Dad are looking at a pump shot gun. The Dad closes the bolt and points the gun about 5 feet behind me at a 45 degree down angle and CLICK PULLS THE TRIGGER.

Ok, we have now verified that the firearm is, in fact, unloaded.

I think **** did I just see what I think I saw? Shot can be lethal coming off a concrete floor..............

Could be... but most likely not... shot has very, very little energy remaining after a ricochet. Even if it did ricochet it should scatter enough that any strays should just cause a superficial wound... lethal... not likely...

So I am now annoyed. Then the Dad with the bolt closed hands the gun to the kid and swipes me as he does it.

Gun is still verified to be empty, unless the bolt has been cycled.

Then kid lays the gun on the counter top bolt still closed. Then the shop owner picks up the gun to measure something, bolt still closed.

Same as above, still verified empty.

So three people have handled the gun back and forth and the bolt is still closed, the owner lays it on the counter again. So I am thinking OK if they just leave it on the counter not pointed at me I might hang out a while. This all happens in about 2 minutes,

Then the kid picks up the gun again and barrel end down bolt closed rests it on his hip pointed at himself in the groin.

Gun is still verified empty...

So I say nicely "will you please open the bolt on that thing you are making me nervous" Then all three of them look at me and the kid says "what" Now I am in the position of having to explain that I think they are a bunch of lousy gun handlers and not safe (having to have some sort of a conversation with them) or just leaving.

I still don't get it...

I know bad gun handling when I see it

Oh really.... maybe bad gun handling... but you missed a few important parts...

Oh, BTW, I've been shooting competitive trap since I was 14.

Sorry to bring common sense into an irrational, and ridiculous thread... but maybe we just need a little more common sense in all this...


ETA. now that I read the responses, here is an anecdotal story for all of those that think there is never a safe situation regarding pointing firearms at another.

If you've ever been into real shotgunning you would know that 99% of real shotgunners point many guns at others...

Walk into any shotgun pro-shop, I'm not talking Gandermountain, I'm talking the Beretta booth at the Grande, or the Perazzi booth etc. Ask them to try out a shotgun. You'll point the shotgun at their face before you walk out... In order to adjust/fit the gun to you they ask you to mount the gun up as if their eye is the bird. You both verify that the chamber is empty, then you mount the shotgun. Many people that don't understand common sense would freak out about this... other people, that understand firearms, and common sense don't see it as a problem.

Geeze, has nobody dry-fired before? A lot of people dry-fire at their TV. Are you "willing" to destroy your tv? I'm not openly willing, sure it'd be better than a life, but it's all the same. You feel that it is reasonably safe to fire a gun that you've verified as empty at your tv....

Rant off...

 

[shooter521]

I HATE looking down the barrel of a gun I have just checked.

What I hate even more is handing a gun to somebody, and the first thing he does is point it at himself or at his wife, kid or another customer standing next to him. I have pretty much become immune to being swept while at the shop; if I stopped and corrected everybody who did it, I wouldn't do anything else during the day. Besides, it's not the guns we get out to show that I worry about, since we personally clear them before handing them over; it's the ones the customers bring in, then insist on clearing themselves... while pointing them in an unsafe direction.

You feel that it is reasonably safe to fire a gun that you've verified as empty at your tv....

IBJR (In Before Jack Ryan)

 

[CampingJosh]

Rant off...

Yeah, I'm with you on most of this, CountryBoy, but not all of it. As I've always heard it, the first rule of gun safety is "Every gun is loaded until you verify it is not." You, personally.
When the gun is passed to a different person, that person should verify it for themselves. But while it's in your possession, if you've made sure it's unloaded, you can treat it like it's unloaded.

Just don't point it at me unless I've verified it's unloaded.

 

[CountryBoy19]

Yeah, I'm with you on most of this, CountryBoy, but not all of it. As I've always heard it, the first rule of gun safety is "Every gun is loaded until you verify it is not." You, personally.
When the gun is passed to a different person, that person should verify it for themselves. But while it's in your possession, if you've made sure it's unloaded, you can treat it like it's unloaded.

Just don't point it at me unless I've verified it's unloaded.

I certainly understand that... but in this situation, the only time that applied to that was when the person fired the gun at the floor. Any time after that the gun was pretty much verified to be empty...

Where else should a person point a gun when they want to check the trigger out in a gun-shop? I think the floor would be a pretty safe place... depending on the shop, you never know what it on the other side of the wall, or what is upstairs from the shop... floor seems pretty safe to me...


JMHO...

 

[CampingJosh]

I certainly understand that... but in this situation, the only time that applied to that was when the person fired the gun at the floor. Any time after that the gun was pretty much verified to be empty...

I check again after every hand off. I know it may be "unnecessary," but I've seen enough magicians to know that what I think I saw isn't always exactly what I saw. Just because I didn't see someone else stick a live round in it doesn't mean that I'm not liable for anything shot while I'm holding the gun. (And "liable" not just in a legal sense but also a moral one.)

Pointing it at the floor is fine with me; there isn't anywhere better. At shows, auctions, and busy shops, up and down are the only options where it's not pointed at anyone.

 

[Yamaha]

I check again after every hand off. I know it may be "unnecessary," but I've seen enough magicians to know that what I think I saw isn't always exactly what I saw. Just because I didn't see someone else stick a live round in it doesn't mean that I'm not liable for anything shot while I'm holding the gun. (And "liable" not just in a legal sense but also a moral one.)

Pointing it at the floor is fine with me; there isn't anywhere better. At shows, auctions, and busy shops, up and down are the only options where it's not pointed at anyone.

Agreed...I always get weird looks in shops/shows when I actually will check to verify it is unloaded before really looking at it... Whats the saying? Better to err on the side of caution? I never trust anyone to make sure a weapon is cleared before I check it, and I never dry fire.....it can damage some firearms by doing so.

 

[ThrottleJockey]

I don't think he is over reacting, one of the most common cases of AD's are empty chamber loaded mag. or tube.

I may just be nit picking here, but I MUST correct this statement as I have been corrected in the past. THESE ARE NOT EXAMPLES OF AD, BUT RATHER ND. An AD or accidental discharge is a very different thing from a ND or negligent discharge. I'm also surprised/astonished that no one else among us has even noticed it.

 

[LPMan59]

Agreed...I always get weird looks in shops/shows when I actually will check to verify it is unloaded before really looking at it... Whats the saying? Better to err on the side of caution? I never trust anyone to make sure a weapon is cleared before I check it, and I never dry fire.....it can damage some firearms by doing so.

interesting. i will never buy a firearm without dryfiring/function checking.

 

[NIFT]

Safe Gun Handling Rule #!:

ALWAYS keep the gun [muzzle] pointed in a safe direction.

For those, here, who disagree, please tell me where the "except," "unless," "but," "however," or any other qualifier is in ALWAYS.
"All the boys do it" excuses--or any other excuses--don't cut it, either.

 

[wetidlerjr]

Safe Gun Handling Rule #!:

ALWAYS keep the gun [muzzle] pointed in a safe direction.

For those, here, who disagree, please tell me where the "except," "unless," "but," "however," or any other qualifier is in ALWAYS.
"All the boys do it" excuses--or any other excuses--don't cut it, either.

I agree !

 

[fnpfan]

I don't think he is over reacting, one of the most common cases of AD's are empty chamber loaded mag. or tube.

i agree, but not in a gun store, people are there to check the gun out before a purchase, that is why he first checked the gun out. dont you want to know that when u pull the trigger it goes click?? this is just a case of someone over reacting in a GUN STORE....let people look without you watching them.

 

[Expat]

I don't like having guns pointed at my brain case, no matter how safe you tell me they are.

Last gun show I went to I was looking at a case of guns and glanced to my
right to see grandpa holding a gun from a dealer about chest level with his
finger on the trigger pointing about in line with my temple.
This was not a new in the case gun but a used gun.
He picked it up and started fumbling with it.........
I gave an audible .......WOAH!!! And stepped back.
They did not seem too concerned.

Did you ever think it was not a mistake

 

[hip shot]

Well we cetainly have had quite the discussion about this.

Congradulations on the civil nature of the discusssion( I am serious about that ) you guys have done a good job of thinking about this. hope to see you at the range some day

 

[Love the 1911]

Safe Gun Handling Rule #!:

ALWAYS keep the gun [muzzle] pointed in a safe direction.

For those, here, who disagree, please tell me where the "except," "unless," "but," "however," or any other qualifier is in ALWAYS.
"All the boys do it" excuses--or any other excuses--don't cut it, either.

Here's the common sense that we've been looking for. The 4 rules of gun safety are very liberal. That means, if you break just one of them, no one will get hurt. As soon as 2 or more are broken, there is a risk of injury and death to people. I would like for people to correct me when I break one of the rules. I am not perfect with firearms or too proud to accept criticism when I mess up. Only by being corrected on this rule can a negligent discharge become "not a big deal" if and when it happens in the future.

 

[CountryBoy19]

I agree !

You've got your neg rep coming back whenever I can give out more rep. There was absolutely no reason to neg rep that post... if you want to discuss the matter then discuss it. Don't neg rep just because the opinion differs from yours...

BTW, I got a whole heck of a lot more positive rep out of that post than your measely little neg rep. Are you aware that your rep doesn't count for squat when you're a FNG? My return neg rep will seem like the wrath of the devil when it hits you...

 

[IndianaResident]

Here's the common sense that we've been looking for. The 4 rules of gun safety are very liberal.

Right you are. Who's got the signature about pedantry versus mastery...

Congradulations on the civil nature of the discusssion

Its true, well done.

A few things came to mind when I read your post.

1st- Only 7% of Americans have had any firearms education.
2nd- What ever happened to being nice to your neighbors? If you are truly an NRA instructor as you say you are, I would say you missed a great opportunity to be helpful and informative. Instead of walking over and saying "open the bolt" and getting a dumb look. You could have acted in a friendly, neighborly manner and educated them on the "3 rules of gun safety". While i'm not a firearms educator, I am an educator of other things. Most educators out there can recognize ignorance. Any good educator, would've taken this opportunity to be a good citizen and educated. While you didn't need to give them a 3 hour long gun safety 101, you could have given them 5 minutes, and sent them home with the first 3 very basic rules and had a nice conversation and made some good acquaintance. After a friendly conversation you slide them your card and set yourself up for a potential $200 down the road. Now you've sent them home with a shotgun and bad habits they will continue to use forever. Unless they end up in your classroom, then that will set up a whole new scenario and memories of a jerk. Who wants to learn from that? Stop looking down your nose at the uneducated and think about what your actually witnessing and how you could effect that. Let me ask you "Mr. Instructor" what will you do when you open up your newspaper start in on your morning beverage and read about how that young man accidentally shot his father to death- Barrel direction, finger on the trigger, or loaded/unloaded?

Except for you. People were already making those same corrections, much more politely I might add, and without assigning a man's hypothetical death as a lesson.

 

[NIFT]

Congradulations on the civil nature of the discusssion.

Well, it was until the second post after you posted the congratulations!

 

[printcraft]

 

[Armed & Christian]

Que, unfortunately I can't rep you right now. But you deserve it.

Got him for you. I have to spread some around before I can re-rep Hornaday, anyhow, so...

 

[CountryBoy19]

Well, it was until the second post after you posted the congratulations!

Just wanted to let him know how things work around here. If you leave neg rep, expect to get it back, it's as simple as that. As a matter of fact, it even says that right after you leave rep, "May you be lucky enough to get the same rep back" or something to that effect.

I'm not going to get into a p***ing match with you. We obviously hold differing opinions. You've been indoctrinated with the "no exceptions" rule, and many millions of shooters have been practicing the "common sense" rule for decades without injury. To each his own, I'll stick to my common sense.

What is a guy supposed to do when he goes into a gun-shop, take the gun around to every single person in the shop to have them check if it's clear before he dry-fires it? People would look at him like he's fallen off his rocker... what about a place like Cabelas or Gander? How far away from the counter do you need to take the gun to have others check clear on it? Should you take it all the way to the front of the store to have those cashiers check clear as well?

My point is, just use common sense in the matter, that is all.