Gun range coming to Carmel?

[CarmelHP]

One collective seeks to limit property rights of a gun business because they don't like the service provided. Another collective wants to limit the property rights of business owners because they think the proposed building is an eyesore.

How does one support the right of one collective and not the other?

That line is called, "playing to the audience," and likely has nothing to do with the writer's personal beliefs. There is a less than ideal political climate in which one has to work. Making a choice seem to more closely fit that climate makes the choice easier to attain. BTW, one article mentioned Mayor Braindead declined an interview. He's usually willing to get his puss in any media that will have it. He must know he's vulnerable on this issue, especially with all the MAIG flak a few years ago.

 

[T.Lex]

One collective seeks to limit property rights of a gun business because they don't like the service provided. Another collective wants to limit the property rights of business owners because they think the proposed building is an eyesore.

How does one support the right of one collective and not the other?

False dichotomy.

The collective in power has already decided the design choices a business can make. The other "collective" doesn't really care about the design, just the use, but wants to point out to the collective-in-power that the building already meets the necessary criteria.

Edit: Oh, and to be clear - I do not represent the Point Blank business or owner or attorneys representing them. I'm doing this because I want a gun range in Carmel to go shooting with my kids and other family. I have been in touch with the owner and the attorneys (he's hired one of the best zoning firms in Carmel IMHO) to try to avoid a mixed message.

The opposition is quietly organizing, we gotta be organized, too.

 

[hornadylnl]

That line is called, "playing to the audience," and likely has nothing to do with the writer's personal beliefs. There is a less than ideal political climate in which one has to work. Making a choice seem to more closely fit that climate makes the choice easier to attain. BTW, one article mentioned Mayor Braindead declined an interview. He's usually willing to get his puss in any media that will have it. He must know he's vulnerable on this issue, especially with all the MAIG flak a few years ago.

I hope it's "just playing to the audience" but I've read enough gun owners supporting code enforcement to know that there are far too many who think that way.

If one wants to use code enforcement to limit my property rights, why should I sympathize with those who want to see this range succeed?

As with the proposed Zionsville ordinance, I sympathize with those who would never sic code enforcement on their neighbors. But for those who would, how do they like their karma?

Why do we forge the weapons that the government uses against us? Are we foolish enough to believe that we'll never be the victims of the leviathan we helped to create?

 

[hornadylnl]

False dichotomy.

The collective in power has already decided the design choices a business can make. The other "collective" doesn't really care about the design, just the use, but wants to point out to the collective-in-power that the building already meets the necessary criteria.

Edit: Oh, and to be clear - I do not represent the Point Blank business or owner or attorneys representing them. I'm doing this because I want a gun range in Carmel to go shooting with my kids and other family. I have been in touch with the owner and the attorneys (he's hired one of the best zoning firms in Carmel IMHO) to try to avoid a mixed message.

The opposition is quietly organizing, we gotta be organized, too.

Who voted for the collective in power and did the collective in power decide the design choices or did the people demand those design choices and the collective in power implemented them?

Just curious. Do you live in an HOA?

 

[1 old 0311]

I hope it's "just playing to the audience" but I've read enough gun owners supporting code enforcement to know that there are far too many who think that way.

If one wants to use code enforcement to limit my property rights, why should I sympathize with those who want to see this range succeed?

As with the proposed Zionsville ordinance, I sympathize with those who would never sic code enforcement on their neighbors. But for those who would, how do they like their karma?

Why do we forge the weapons that the government uses against us? Are we foolish enough to believe that we'll never be the victims of the leviathan we helped to create?

As I said about 150 posts ago the way things are run in Carmel are NOT what they are in Indy or the rest of America. Having lived here 20+ years I am amazed that the State Police hasn't taken most of the local gov away. The 20+ roundabouts we have cost a average of $800,000 each and TRIPLED the accident rates at every one. Carmel also had to buy ALL NEW firetrucks because the old ones couldn't navigate the turns. The Paladium? $120,000,000+ project that was NOT paid for, bonds had to be sold.

Been by 96th and Keystone? That project we were told it "WAS ALL PAID FOR." Turns out nothing was further from the truth that's why it has been on hold for over a year. The way things work here is EXACTLY like things are run in Chicago, I was born there. Carmel is NOT a city. It is a Kingdom run by a King and his Court.

To get this going you need the RIGHT attorney doing the 'right stuff' to get things through. Your opinion, my opinion, or the other 200+ signers don't count. This will be done like ALL things are done in Carmel.

 

[indyharleyguy]

So you support denying a new business if the proposed building isn't aesthetically pleasing but not because of the type of service the business will offer.

Oh, the irony.

Well Don's guns is in need of a face-lift and it would be much easier to say the way Don's guns looks would not go with the other business in Carmel in it's current state. You would have to agree with that wouldn't you?

 

[indyharleyguy]

That line is called, "playing to the audience," and likely has nothing to do with the writer's personal beliefs. There is a less than ideal political climate in which one has to work. Making a choice seem to more closely fit that climate makes the choice easier to attain. BTW, one article mentioned Mayor Braindead declined an interview. He's usually willing to get his puss in any media that will have it. He must know he's vulnerable on this issue, especially with all the MAIG flak a few years ago.

Here is a direct quote from the Mayor.

Thanks for your email; it is important for me to get feedback like yours. It is probably a moot issue since the area has already been zoned for this type of business.


Regards,


Jim Brainard

 

[hornadylnl]

Well Don's guns is in need of a face-lift and it would be much easier to say the way Don's guns looks would not go with the other business in Carmel in it's current state. You would have to agree with that wouldn't you?

What's more likely to injure an innocent bystander? A bullet lobbed through the ceiling and roof of the range or the facade of the building?

So you think it's ok for government to regulate and force business owners into compliance for aesthetics but think government should have no power to prevent a shooting range from being built?

This range owner can put in 24k solid gold urinals in the restroom. It'd be neat to take a leak in one. But as a potential customer, I see nothing but overhead. If this guy has to sink in 10's or 100's of thousands in purely cosmetics just to please the building codes, what does that do to his bottom line? Can he afford to price his merchandize at the same level as a dealer with a more modest structure and lower overhead?

I laugh every time I drive through Carmel and see the brick Walmart. As if that brick somehow makes that 100 round white box of Winchester shoot better than a box sold in an ugly Walmart. These cosmetic costs are passed on to the consumer and don't do a damned thing to improve the product or service being sold. If you want to pay for it, that's fine. I'm not.

 

[1 old 0311]

What's more likely to injure an innocent bystander? A bullet lobbed through the ceiling and roof of the range or the facade of the building?

So you think it's ok for government to regulate and force business owners into compliance for aesthetics but think government should have no power to prevent a shooting range from being built?

This range owner can put in 24k solid gold urinals in the restroom. It'd be neat to take a leak in one. But as a potential customer, I see nothing but overhead. If this guy has to sink in 10's or 100's of thousands in purely cosmetics just to please the building codes, what does that do to his bottom line? Can he afford to price his merchandize at the same level as a dealer with a more modest structure and lower overhead?

I laugh every time I drive through Carmel and see the brick Walmart. As if that brick somehow makes that 100 round white box of Winchester shoot better than a box sold in an ugly Walmart. These cosmetic costs are passed on to the consumer and don't do a damned thing to improve the product or service being sold. If you want to pay for it, that's fine. I'm not.

And it's next to a BODY SHOP and GRAVE YARD.

 

[hornadylnl]

And it's next to a BODY SHOP and GRAVE YARD.

It's not me who's arguing that it needs to be aethetically pleasing or that one should be able to limit the property rights of others. I'm arguing that the government shouldn't have the power to deny this range from being built. But for those who would call code enforcement on their neighbors, I don't feel the least bit of sympathy when code enforcement prevents them from getting what they want.

 

[1 old 0311]

It's not me who's arguing that it needs to be aethetically pleasing or that one should be able to limit the property rights of others. I'm arguing that the government shouldn't have the power to deny this range from being built. But for those who would call code enforcement on their neighbors, I don't feel the least bit of sympathy when code enforcement prevents them from getting what they want.

I agree with you 100% BUT when you are dealing with a 'King' and his 'court' they do what they WANT not what's good for the people. The problem with Carmel is there is WAY too much tax money coming in with 3 hospitals and tons of businesses. As such 'the King' can pick and choose what he approves...............not unlike a certain 'King' living on Pennsylvania in Washington.



p.s. I am going to leave it but I imagine that last sentence violated one of the THOUSANDS of site rules and I will probably get another warning. Oh well. Thats why my posting is limited to one a week, and I no longer donate to this site.

 

[hornadylnl]

I agree with you 100% BUT when you are dealing with a 'King' and his 'court' they do what they WANT not what's good for the people. The problem with Carmel is there is WAY too much tax money coming in with 3 hospitals and tons of businesses. As such 'the King' can pick and choose what he approves...............not unlike a certain 'King' living on Pennsylvania in Washington.



p.s. I am going to leave it but I imagine that last sentence violated one of the THOUSANDS of site rules and I will probably get another warning. Oh well. Thats why my posting is limited to one a week, and I no longer donate to this site.

Would you call code enforcement if your neighbor decided a 70's Berlinetta would make a good permanent addition to his front landscape?

 

[1 old 0311]

Would you call code enforcement if your neighbor decided a 70's Berlinetta would make a good permanent addition to his front landscape?

Would I living in Carmel? No way!!!!!!!!!!!!!!You may remember 4-5 years there were a few massage parlors operating in Carmel. One was 50 yards from my house so I reported it. The girl/madam running the place called and got a meeting with mayor Brainard. She had to shut the place down was fined, don't remember if she got any time, but was also given ALL MY INFORMATION for turning her in. I got threatening calls all hours of the night, my car was vandalized, and my girlfriend was so stressed she moved out. Reporting a crime in Carmel? Only from a phone booth without giving your name.

If I see someone grab a child I will jump in other than that I don't see a thing. Only in Carmel is the criminal given name, address, and phone of anyone reporting a crime.

 

[CarmelHP]

This range owner can put in 24k solid gold urinals in the restroom. It'd be neat to take a leak in one. But as a potential customer, I see nothing but overhead. If this guy has to sink in 10's or 100's of thousands in purely cosmetics just to please the building codes, what does that do to his bottom line? Can he afford to price his merchandize at the same level as a dealer with a more modest structure and lower overhead?

I'll leave that up to the business owner, apparently he thinks it's a good investment despite the oppressive codes.

I laugh every time I drive through Carmel and see the brick Walmart. As if that brick somehow makes that 100 round white box of Winchester shoot better than a box sold in an ugly Walmart. These cosmetic costs are passed on to the consumer and don't do a damned thing to improve the product or service being sold. If you want to pay for it, that's fine. I'm not

.

Where in Carmel? The nearest Walmart is in Westfield, I believe.

 

[Smokepole]

What's more likely to injure an innocent bystander? A bullet lobbed through the ceiling and roof of the range or the facade of the building?

So you think it's ok for government to regulate and force business owners into compliance for aesthetics but think government should have no power to prevent a shooting range from being built?

This range owner can put in 24k solid gold urinals in the restroom. It'd be neat to take a leak in one. But as a potential customer, I see nothing but overhead. If this guy has to sink in 10's or 100's of thousands in purely cosmetics just to please the building codes, what does that do to his bottom line? Can he afford to price his merchandize at the same level as a dealer with a more modest structure and lower overhead?

I laugh every time I drive through Carmel and see the brick Walmart. As if that brick somehow makes that 100 round white box of Winchester shoot better than a box sold in an ugly Walmart. These cosmetic costs are passed on to the consumer and don't do a damned thing to improve the product or service being sold. If you want to pay for it, that's fine. I'm not.

Carmel doesn't have a Walmart. Westfield does though. Is that the one you are referring to? If it is you need to laugh at the Westfield Town Council. And that brick facade does absolutely nothing to encourage some of the patrons to dress appropriately either. Have seen a few candidates for The People of Walmart in there. But that is their prerogative. And I am free to comment as well.

 

[Smokepole]

Would you call code enforcement if your neighbor decided a 70's Berlinetta would make a good permanent addition to his front landscape?

That depends. Is something about what he is doing affecting my right to quiet enjoyment of my home? Is he adversely affecting the value and saleability of my property while I am trying to sell it? Is it creating a hazard to the kids in the neighborhood? If so and he won't respond to friendly reason, then yes I just may. He is entitled to do whatever he likes with his property until he interferes with the rights of his neighbors. We all have rights.

 

[hornadylnl]

That depends. Is something about what he is doing affecting my right to quiet enjoyment of my home? Is he adversely affecting the value and saleability of my property while I am trying to sell it? Is it creating a hazard to the kids in the neighborhood? If so and he won't respond to friendly reason, then yes I just may. He is entitled to do whatever he likes with his property until he interferes with the rights of his neighbors. We all have rights.

And thus Carmel residents who oppose gun ranges have the right to block a gun range from being built.

Oh, and your shooting on your property affects the "quiet enjoyment" of my home. Good thing cities like Zionsville are working on ordinances to stop it.

 

[1 old 0311]

I'll leave that up to the business owner, apparently he thinks it's a good investment despite the oppressive codes.

.

Where in Carmel? The nearest Walmart is in Westfield, I believe.

The 151st St. store is considered Carmel. I was in a Zoning meeting once and a board member asked the attorney if he was the one who represented the WalMart store. Attorney replied yes. Board member said that they, the Board, gets complaints every week. The board voted AGAINST the other side allowing us to win.

 

[T.Lex]

The 151st St. store is considered Carmel.

Only by people who are ignorant of where the boundary is. Legally, it is Westfield and Westfield zoning controls.

I was in a Zoning meeting once and a board member asked the attorney if he was the one who represented the WalMart store. Attorney replied yes. Board member said that they, the Board, gets complaints every week. The board voted AGAINST the other side allowing us to win.

???

Getting back to the Carmel gun range proposed to actually be in Carmel, since it is already a permitted use under the zoning, the Plan Commission basically has a "ministerial" act to determine whether the proposed design specifications are consistent with the City's design standards. There is supposed to be very little discretion.

But, because the mayor directly or indirectly appoints a majority of the Plan Commission, and the mayor has come out against it, I thought it would be good to show the Plan Commission that there was support for this building.

That's what's happening, in a nutshell.

 

[1 old 0311]

As I said earlier I contacted Point Plank and asked them if they wanted, or did NOT want support at the meeting. I gave her this site info so we can hear it from her.