Government response to Boston Marathon bombs; warrantless searches & soldiers

[Pinchaser]

Well, people being told not to leave their houses. Police searching houses, cars, persons, etc. Those are just the ones that the media has reported on.

They were not TOLD to leave their homes. They were ASKED not to and, for the most part, people complied.

Pay better attention to what you are told.

 

[thompal]

This line of thinking is premised on the assumption that all crimes are equal, that it is a binary factor. I'd argue they are not.

I agree with your statement, but I'd also add that in this case, why are the crimes so different??

Thugs in Chicago shoot over 400 people so far, two Muslims explode two bombs in Boston and kill 3.

If the thugs in Chicago were labeled "terrorists" while the two Boston bombers were 'urban youths,' then the Boston situation would be a 2 second blurb on the news, but people would be clambering for the NG to occupy Chicago.

Imagine this headline:
"TERRORISTS SHOOT OVER 400 IN CHICAGO SO FAR!!!! GOVERNOR REFUSES TO SEND NATIONAL GUARD!!!!!"

or:

"TWO YOUTHS KILL 3 WITH HOMEMADE BOMB. MARTIAL LAW DECLARED!!!!!"

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Well, people being told not to leave their houses. Police searching houses, cars, persons, etc. Those are just the ones that the media has reported on.

1. Police, even THE POOOO-LEECE here on INGO, ask people to do stuff every day/night.

"Now, Ma'am, you stay here and drink your beer, while I talk to Jim Bob Lee Lee, Jr. about the stolen couch from your porch, and then I'll come right back."

It's a request, not an order.

2. POOOO-LEECE looking for a dangerous, armed killer? Shocking, it's like the reason we have the hands of law enforcement or some such nonsense.

What do you expect the cops to do? Use The Force? Of course they are looking in cars, house, boats, etc. for him.

They knock on the door and ask if they can look for the dangerous, psycho killer. Do you think people are going to call Alex Jones or Rand Paul? No, of course they will let the coppers search.

 

[Pinchaser]

As the cops were leaving the scene tonight, about a 2 block area was lined with local citizens who began APPLAUDING the police as they drove by them. CNN and MSNBC immediately cut away from it to keep their audience from seeing it. Fox not only stayed with it but commented on how refreshing it was to see people give their LE the credit they deserve.

Best TV I've seen in a long time.

 

[thompal]

1. Police, even THE POOOO-LEECE here on INGO, ask people to do stuff every day/night.

"Now, Ma'am, you stay here and drink your beer, while I talk to Jim Bob Lee Lee, Jr. about the stolen couch from your porch, and then I'll come right back."

It's a request, not an order.

2. POOOO-LEECE looking for a dangerous, armed killer? Shocking, it's like the reason we have the hands of law enforcement or some such nonsense.

What do you expect the cops to do? Use The Force? Of course they are looking in cars, house, boats, etc. for him.

They knock on the door and ask if they can look for the dangerous, psycho killer. Do you think people are going to call Alex Jones or Rand Paul? No, of course they will let the coppers search.

One thing that baffles me is that even some people here have mentioned that the guy was emailing, or tweeting, or something, while he was on the run. With the FBI, ATF, and who knows who else, involved, I'm surprised they couldn't track him by his cell phone. That technology has been around for 20 years (remember Mitnick, i.e.-Trigger Fish??), and now that nearly every phone has GPS in it, they could have gotten within 30 feet of his location.

 

[mrjarrell]

As the cops were leaving the scene tonight, about a 2 block area was lined with local citizens who began APPLAUDING the police as they drove by them. CNN and MSNBC immediately cut away from it to keep their audience from seeing it. Fox not only stayed with it but commented on how refreshing it was to see people give their LE the credit they deserve.

Best TV I've seen in a long time.

I was watching NBC and that certainly wasn't the case. They showed the people out there on the streets and the applause. No cut aways at all.

 

[Destro]

Police searching houses, cars, persons, etc. Those are just the ones that the media has reported on.

law enforcement conducts thousands of warrantless, constitutional searches of persons, dwellings, papers, and effects daily. Media has given no evidence these are anything but legal.

 

[Destro]

One thing that baffles me is that even some people here have mentioned that the guy was emailing, or tweeting, or something, while he was on the run. With the FBI, ATF, and who knows who else, involved, I'm surprised they couldn't track him by his cell phone. That technology has been around for 20 years (remember Mitnick, i.e.-Trigger Fish??), and now that nearly every phone has GPS in it, they could have gotten within 30 feet of his location.

there are simple ways around that

 

[Designer99]

As the cops were leaving the scene tonight, about a 2 block area was lined with local citizens who began APPLAUDING the police as they drove by them. CNN and MSNBC immediately cut away from it to keep their audience from seeing it. Fox not only stayed with it but commented on how refreshing it was to see people give their LE the credit they deserve.

Best TV I've seen in a long time.

NBC has had the locals on the street on for the past half hour if not more. They still have them on this very second. Guess that blows your liberal media conspiracy on that one huh?

Cable news is bad for you.

 

[88GT]

I agree with your statement, but I'd also add that in this case, why are the crimes so different??

Thugs in Chicago shoot over 400 people so far, two Muslims explode two bombs in Boston and kill 3.

If the thugs in Chicago were labeled "terrorists" while the two Boston bombers were 'urban youths,' then the Boston situation would be a 2 second blurb on the news, but people would be clambering for the NG to occupy Chicago.

Imagine this headline:
"TERRORISTS SHOOT OVER 400 IN CHICAGO SO FAR!!!! GOVERNOR REFUSES TO SEND NATIONAL GUARD!!!!!"

or:

"TWO YOUTHS KILL 3 WITH HOMEMADE BOMB. MARTIAL LAW DECLARED!!!!!"

How can you agree with the point of my post and then ask how they are different? I'm not tracking that line of thinking very well at all.

Is body count all that you are using to compare them? The number of perps doesn't matter? The nature of the shootings doesn't matter? The number of incidents required to reach a body count in the 400s doesn't matter? The risk to the populace from each and every shooter in those 400+ deaths doesn't matter? The motives for the shootings doesn't matter?

I think it's a bit disingenuous to lump 400+ individual criminal acts into one collective datum point and use that as a comparison with an act of terror as well.

I'm not sure what your purpose was in posting the imaginary headlines either. Let's say I imagine it. Okay. I'll say that the headline doesn't say anything. What's the article say?

 

[rambone]

I'm just trying to figure out how you can know it's over the line if you don't know where the line is.

The government told businesses that they were not allowed to be open today, and prohibited customers from traveling on the roads.

For one thing you CAN'T quantify the total economic losses from today, and secondly, any prohibition on business is a step too far, in my opinion. I don't need a budget report to decide if the government crossed the line with their overreaction. They were directly cutting into private commerce.

I can't recall any of their rantings to include hopes and dreams that we will find ourselves slaves to the .gov. On the other hand, I am quite positive I have read many times where they wish us dead.

May I read their rantings? I didn't know these were public yet.

If there is any coercive motivation in their actions, my money is on conversion.

Conversion... That's a fine theory, but it seems breathtakingly ineffective, to the point of being silly.

so dead bodies don't count for anything? If it weren't so pathetic, it would be laughable.

Sure they count for something. But if this was all about creating a body count, presumably to wipe out the American public, they would have hired some drugged out high-schoolers and given them extended mags and trench-coats.

The goal is fear. Mission accomplished.

 

[thompal]

How can you agree with the point of my post and then ask how they are different? I'm not tracking that line of thinking very well at all.

Is body count all that you are using to compare them? The number of perps doesn't matter? The nature of the shootings doesn't matter? The number of incidents required to reach a body count in the 400s doesn't matter? The risk to the populace from each and every shooter in those 400+ deaths doesn't matter? The motives for the shootings doesn't matter?

I think it's a bit disingenuous to lump 400+ individual criminal acts into one collective datum point and use that as a comparison with an act of terror as well.

I'm not sure what your purpose was in posting the imaginary headlines either. Let's say I imagine it. Okay. I'll say that the headline doesn't say anything. What's the article say?

You said "not all crimes are equal," and I agree with that. You did not say "not all murders are equal."

I agree that shoplifting a piece of gum is not equal to murder/rape/whatever. But murder is murder, no matter the motivation. And if murdering any one person is equal to murdering any other person, how is murdering 3 people worse than murdering hundreds(Chicago), or dozens (Indy)? And if we shut down an entire city and have 24 hour news coverage over the murder of 3, why is the murder of a few hundred not even newsworthy?

I agree that the two bombers NEEDED to be caught. But, seeing all the 'military' on the streets to catch them, travel restrictions, searches, etc. being used to catch them, I have to ask why we cheer those actions, when used to catch two guys who murdered 3 people. Will we urge those same tactics be used to make OUR city "safe" by catching those who murder dozens?

 

[rambone]

Just out of curiosity, exactly what freedoms have been infringed on? I haven't seen any specifics, only assumptions, and complaints about LEOs dressed in off the rack camo, driving humvees, and carrying scary black guns...

Let's see if I can remember them all. The thread began with a statement by the governor stating that people would be randomly searched in public. Businesses were forced to close. Vehicles were prohibited from driving on the roads. I've posted pictures of soldiers checking civilians IDs and cops searching people's bags. A U.S. Senator is calling for for a direct subversion of the Bill of Rights by eliminating due process for certain crime suspects.

Its unclear what level of coercion was involved in the house searches. I also heard reports that people were being arrested for venturing out into the public during lockdown. Another verbal report said that there were checkpoints on the NJ turnpike. (Unclear at this time)

There are more things I don't like about the situation that don't necessarily have to be "infringements." Such as the use of soldiers on American streets, the locking down of public areas, the frivolous searches of people's bags, the dramatic house-to-house sweeps (even if they were voluntary). And frankly the elitist attitude of the government that oppresses gun owners for carrying guns, yet rolls out paramilitary combat forces after a crock pot explodes.

...and oddly enough, the people complaining, aren't in Boston.

I'm subsidizing it and I will assuredly be affected by the national reaction.

 

[Destro]

You said "not all crimes are equal," and I agree with that. You did not say "not all murders are equal."

I agree that shoplifting a piece of gum is not equal to murder/rape/whatever. But murder is murder, no matter the motivation. And if murdering any one person is equal to murdering any other person, how is murdering 3 people worse than murdering hundreds(Chicago), or dozens (Indy)? And if we shut down an entire city and have 24 hour news coverage over the murder of 3, why is the murder of a few hundred not even newsworthy?

I agree that the two bombers NEEDED to be caught. But, seeing all the 'military' on the streets to catch them, travel restrictions, searches, etc. being used to catch them, I have to ask why we cheer those actions, when used to catch two guys who murdered 3 people. Will we urge those same tactics be used to make OUR city "safe" by catching those who murder dozens?

so was 9/11 just another murder too?

 

[Blackhawk2001]

You said "not all crimes are equal," and I agree with that. You did not say "not all murders are equal."

I agree that shoplifting a piece of gum is not equal to murder/rape/whatever. But murder is murder, no matter the motivation. And if murdering any one person is equal to murdering any other person, how is murdering 3 people worse than murdering hundreds(Chicago), or dozens (Indy)? And if we shut down an entire city and have 24 hour news coverage over the murder of 3, why is the murder of a few hundred not even newsworthy?

I agree that the two bombers NEEDED to be caught. But, seeing all the 'military' on the streets to catch them, travel restrictions, searches, etc. being used to catch them, I have to ask why we cheer those actions, when used to catch two guys who murdered 3 people. Will we urge those same tactics be used to make OUR city "safe" by catching those who murder dozens?

I think perhaps you're not taking into account that the murders in Chicago are, generally, retail in scope (a couple at a time), while the casualties in Boston were wholesale in scope; they practically equaled 50% of your 400 number in one incident. That alone is reason enough for a major response. Additionally, there was absolutely NO REASON to think that, had the perps escaped capture, they would not have done the same thing again and again until they WERE captured or killed.

I have participated in wilderness searches for lost persons that have used hundreds of searchers looking for one lost person. I've also participated in urban searches where we used as many personnel as we could scrounge up to look for a single person. In both cases manpower counts, and it's more difficult to find and evaluate clues in an urban environment than it is in a wilderness environment. While I'm wary of government intrusion in our lives, I wouldn't be put out if legions of cops combed through my neighborhood looking for survivors of a catastrophic tornado; I'm not sure why I should be put out if the same legions combed through my neighborhood looking for a terrorist bomber.

 

[thompal]

law enforcement conducts thousands of warrantless, constitutional searches of persons, dwellings, papers, and effects daily. Media has given no evidence these are anything but legal.

Oddly enough, I don't look to The Media to provide a definition of "Constitutional."

 

[thompal]

so was 9/11 just another murder too?

A few thousand of them. All the people who committed the murders were killed, and most were from Saudi. Did that justify invading Iraq and losing a few thousand more, at a cost of trillions?

All of the murderers were also male, and middle-eastern. Does that justify molesting toddlers and old white people at the airport?

Does the fact that a loony shoots up a school justify giving up our firearms?

How many liberties are you willing to give up every time some insane person commits a murder?

 

[TheRude1]

What would the citizens of Boston done in 1775 ?(pre revolution)

Called the Crown for help ?

Or

Taken matters into their own hands and just done what needed to be done with anyone that did what they did ?
Figuring it would only taken an HR or so

 

[Blackhawk2001]

It's kind of interesting that we've gotten ourselves into such a state that when a government performs one of its few legitimate functions - protecting the populace - we rail against it.

 

[88GT]

The government told businesses that they were not allowed to be open today, and prohibited customers from traveling on the roads.

For one thing you CAN'T quantify the total economic losses from today, and secondly, any prohibition on business is a step too far, in my opinion. I don't need a budget report to decide if the government crossed the line with their overreaction. They were directly cutting into private commerce.

I see we're altering the story line a bit. First it was that it cost too much. Now it's just the loss of commerce from the intrusion. I'm going to ask this again: do you have proof that the citizens of Boston would have faced prosecution for refusal to comply with the requests? Do you have proof that the citizens complied with the requests only out of fear of these up-to-now- imaginary prosecutorial reprisals? I will be happy to concede an overstep of government when someone can provide the evidence that the citizens had no choice in the matter and would not have complied but for the threat of consequences. I'll even grant a partial victory to you if you can provide evidence that non-compliance would have been met with prosecution, regardless of what the citizens wanted. However, I'm willing to bet that people were perfectly happy to lose one day's worth of commerce. I find it hard to jump on the tyranny bandwagon without any of these two pieces of information.

But I have a feeling you think the mere fact that the government asked was an infringement. Am I close?

May I read their rantings? I didn't know these were public yet.

Do you really want me to believe that you have read nothing from terrorists in the past?

Conversion... That's a fine theory, but it seems breathtakingly ineffective, to the point of being silly.

It's not a theory. It's part and parcel of some Islamic interpretations of their jihadic (I might have made that word up) responsibilities. Jihad, and by extension the terrorist acts used to achieve it, are not about instilling fear.

Sure they count for something. But if this was all about creating a body count, presumably to wipe out the American public, they would have hired some drugged out high-schoolers and given them extended mags and trench-coats.

The goal is fear. Mission accomplished.

Then we won't see any more attempts to KILL people, will we?