First Confrontation with LEO while OCing

[Jack Ryan]

Tell me about it. It is like when OCers say someone who decides to OC by carrying their gun in their hand, instead of in a holster, might be worth being checked out, or at least watched, by the cops.

In their hand, in their pocket, in an Uncle Mike's holster, on a skinny belt, on a big fat hip, wrong color belt or non matching holster, not the supper duper retentional tactical clique approved brand with the little alligator on the extra mag holders...

Just look at the thread started by the guy who wants to OC his shotgun or rifle like these guys are advocating for carrying hand guns. Every single arguement for one can be made for the other but suddenly they all flip flop to the other side when it's not THEIR chosen weapon. Then they get all up in "legal but use some common sense".

Common sense is pretty much the first casualty in these conversations with a 50 cal "what I want to do" through the heart in the opening volley.

 

[Demo]

+1 to the OP. I think you did fine.

Thanks for sharing your story.

 

[E'villeGunner]

How was the OP "WHINING"?

He gave the BCSD a +1 for the way they handled it.

It seems other people here are whining.

My post was not necessarily aimed toward the OP. Nor did I even single out the OP in my post. But I have seen/read on this forum(not just this thread) too many rant and rave because someone was stopped or singled out due to the fact that they OC'd. I still stand by it. IF you OC, EXPECT the extra attention that you are going to garner from it.

I too think the OP did just fine in his handling of being asked for his LTCH by the way.

 

[MinuteMan47]

My post was not necessarily aimed toward the OP. Nor did I even single out the OP in my post. But I have seen/read on this forum(not just this thread) too many rant and rave because someone was stopped or singled out due to the fact that they OC'd. I still stand by it. IF you OC, EXPECT the extra attention that you are going to garner from it.

I too think the OP did just fine in his handling of being asked for his LTCH by the way.

Haha. I think it's funny how a guy posts a positive thread and says +1 for the BCSD, but people still for some reason still have to find the negatives.

Your thoughts about people getting extra attention for OCing is just great and your opinion, however it is irrelavent to this thread.
MAYBE I WILL SAY IT AGAIN, HE GAVE THE BCSD a for how they handled it. I can't speak for the OP, but it seems he didn't mind.


So why is it you bring up all these other threads if this one was for a POSITIVE experience???


. "Bu, bu, but...in the other threads people were cop bashing..."


.

 

[long coat]

Real question. Did the LEO break the law by asking for his LTCH?

 

[dross]

My post was not necessarily aimed toward the OP. Nor did I even single out the OP in my post. But I have seen/read on this forum(not just this thread) too many rant and rave because someone was stopped or singled out due to the fact that they OC'd. I still stand by it. IF you OC, EXPECT the extra attention that you are going to garner from it.

I too think the OP did just fine in his handling of being asked for his LTCH by the way.

You missed the point.

Because I know that people sometimes get hassled for OCing, I might EXPECT it to happen to me. Whether I expect it or not, has nothing to do with whether it's right to be hassled.

A: If you OC, you should EXPECT to get hassled.
B: I expect that I might, but that's not going to keep me from exercising my rights, and for trying to get things changed so that I, and others who choose to exercise their rights as a free citizen can EXPECT TO NOT get hassled for doing nothing illegal.

Expecting something means you understand that it might happen. Expect and deserve are not equivalent.

Or did you mean that OCers deserve to be hassled?

 

[E5RANGER375]

Real question. Did the LEO break the law by asking for his LTCH?

no. the law states the burden of proof is on you (the gun owner, carrier) if the LEO sees your gun and ask you to verify you are legal then you MUST LEGALY produce your LTCH to the officer.

now it would have been crossing the line legaly if the LEO would have additionaly asked for his drivers license. at that point the OP would not have had to provide the DL.

because Indiana has a effed up law that we need changed .... its technically illegal to carry a handgun in the state of Indiana. the LTCH is what grants you the ability to carry it legaly. the LTCH actualy goes against the federal and state constitutions, so its something we responsible gun owners need to write our state reps about.

 

[Bill of Rights]

...YES!!!!!
After twenty three years in Law enforcement I know FOR A FACT that the average Citizen will see a firearm as a threat.
As will damn near any Police Officer who wants to go home at the end of his shift.
Mike

Mike,

Not picking on you, but using your statement here to make a point. It would be easy to jump to Col. Cooper's definition of "hoplophobia", the irrational fear of inanimate objects, but to me, the bigger point is that with (old figures), roughly 15% of the Indiana population holding a LTCH, maybe it's time to help fix the problem you stated:

The average citizen and probably most LEOs do not see a car sitting in a parking place, being towed behind a wrecker, or even being driven on a street near but not at them, as a threat.

The average citizen and probably most LEOs do not see a pocketknife clipped to someone's pocket

as a threat.

The average citizen and probably most LEOs don't see a pistol on a cop's belt or in a shoulder holster as a threat.

Conclusion: We are used to seeing those items, all of which can be a threat, but we are accustomed to them and so dismiss them as commonplace. The latter point, re: a pistol on a LEO's person, proves that it's not hoplophobia but rather profiling or if you prefer, judgment, and I don't use either term negatively.

I wonder, strictly as a matter of personal curiosity, how many of the people stopped and asked for their LTCH because they were OCing, were professionally dressed, clean-cut "businessmen and women"? (that is, they were wearing a suit or similar)
How many in khakis and a tucked-in polo shirt?
Now how many in ripped, dirty jeans and a T shirt, with the pistol tucked in without a holster?
In some locations, how many Black vs. Hispanic vs. Asian vs. White?

Do not answer those directly, anyone. I'm asking them rhetorically and especially the last not as a precursor to a racial thread.

The point is that it's not presently commonplace to see anyone carrying a pistol who is not a LEO. To use the "Old West" analogy, how often do you suppose people called the local sheriff over to the general store because someone was OCing? They didn't, because it was commonplace and as we all know, crime rates were far lower, despite Hollywood's misrepresentation.

OCing, as I understand it, is not about attention today, though that's a side effect. When people started carrying cell phones, only the very wealthy could do so and they were those huge "bag phones", but boy, when you saw one, it got attention. Today, they are largely unnoticed except when Kenny Tarmac is blabbering on his regardless of his surroundings.

To me, it seems a laudable goal to make the sight of a holstered pistol a commonplace thing. Personally, I'd like to see INGO have a thread of "Where did you choose to go unarmed today?" that was viewed as oddly as the present "Where did you OC today?". Such a thread would be for people who just, for whatever reason, chose to leave their sidearm at home and entrust their safety to those around them. Actually, on second thought, no, I don't want to see that. The insults and indignance at someone doing that would have that thread closed in a heartbeat.

The only reason it's common to see a LEO OCing is that it's part of our paradigm. We expect it, and that's fine. I'm just of the opinion that it's not a bad thing to see more people added to that paradigm.

And for the record, no, I don't OC. I simply think that good people who choose to do so should be encouraged to continue.

Blessings,
Bill

 

[PatriotPride]

^^^Well said sir!

 

[UncleMike]

Mike,

Not picking on you, but using your statement here to make a point. It would be easy to jump to Col. Cooper's definition of "hoplophobia", the irrational fear of inanimate objects, but to me, the bigger point is that with (old figures), roughly 15% of the Indiana population holding a LTCH, maybe it's time to help fix the problem you stated:

I agree with you!
I'm not opposed to anyone legally OC'ing.
However.
It's just not practical to believe that you can do so without drawing attention to yourself.
Perhaps that will change in the future but I'm not holding my breath until it happens.
Since I live in a moderately sized city, thousands of people know me, and they know that I CC 24/7.
It's when a stranger is carrying, openly or poorly concealed, that people get "nervous".
I'm not responsible for other peoples reactions to a visible firearm.
I simply choose to avoid such situations.
BTW Bill
Your entire post is reasonable in it's content.
I just didn't want to quote the entire thing.
Mike

 

[mk2ja]

If you OC, EXPECT the extra attention that you are going to garner from it.

Yep, that's sure right.

Here's something I posted about a month ago in the Where Did You OC Today thread:

...
I've said it before, but it's worth re-saying: if you don't want to talk to people about guns, don't let people know you're carrying. But if you're OC'ing, it's a good idea to be in a state of mind that allows you to pause to talk to people about it. ... When you OC, you really are an ambassador for gun owners everywhere, and the way you conduct yourself should foster an attitude of "who cares?" within the public about seeing guns in public places.

Maybe someday I'll get tired of being an ambassador like that, but for now, I'm game. Until then, I don't have a problem dealing with the attention that it garners.

 

[Pilot]

Just a clarification. You mention that you have Never OC'd, but then later state the years that you have been in Law Enforcement. So did you CC while in Law Enforcement too?

Seriously? You are going to pick apart his post to that level?

I'm fat. Sometimes, OC is the only way to comfortable carry a firearm.

Then lose weight if that is an issue that precludes you from concealing your weapon. Simple solution...


I just don't understand why some people are in such need of attention to open carry. Why draw un-needed attention to yourself by anyone?

 

[G_Stines]

I walked out of a gas station yesterday in Nashville IN and was stopped by a Brown County Sheriffs Deputy. I think he noticed me walk in with it and waited for me to walk out. He just asked for my LTCH (he asked for a permit) so I grabbed my wallet out and handed it to him. After about 10 seconds of looking at it he said he was looking for the expiration date. I told him that he wouldn't find one since it was a Lifetime LTCH. He said that it would draw attention by carrying it out in the open, then asked if I was looking to get attention. The encounter lasted about 1 minute and I was on my way. I'm just glad he didn't take my gun and unload it or anything dumb like that. +1 for the Brown County Sheriffs Department.

I second the +1, Brown County Sherriff Dept. are amazingly courteous about that kind of stuff. Been stopped twice down there at a gas station and they have always been very civil and understanding

 

[Regionnus Rattis]

I wonder, strictly as a matter of personal curiosity, how many of the people stopped and asked for their LTCH because they were OCing, were professionally dressed, clean-cut "businessmen and women"? (that is, they were wearing a suit or similar)
How many in khakis and a tucked-in polo shirt?
Now how many in ripped, dirty jeans and a T shirt, with the pistol tucked in without a holster?
In some locations, how many Black vs. Hispanic vs. Asian vs. White?

Do not answer those directly, anyone. I'm asking them rhetorically and especially the last not as a precursor to a racial thread...

The point is that it's not presently commonplace to see anyone carrying a pistol who is not a LEO. To use the "Old West" analogy, how often do you suppose people called the local sheriff over to the general store because someone was OCing? They didn't, because it was commonplace and as we all know, crime rates were far lower, despite Hollywood's misrepresentation...

OCing, as I understand it, is not about attention today, though that's a side effect. When people started carrying cell phones, only the very wealthy could do so and they were those huge "bag phones", but boy, when you saw one, it got attention. Today, they are largely unnoticed except when Kenny Tarmac is blabbering on his regardless of his surroundings...

The only reason it's common to see a LEO OCing is that it's part of our paradigm. We expect it, and that's fine. I'm just of the opinion that it's not a bad thing to see more people added to that paradigm.

Just making a observation of your comments only. You use an "Old West" analogy. Such an analogy cannot be made simply because there is no statistical data on crime rates. We can presuppose that because it was more commonplace to OC, that someone didn't get in touch with the sheriff about a person OC in the general store. We do not know if crime rates were higher or lower than today because of lack of data. Also, what would be compared? The "Old West" did not have but just a few "cities". Most were small towns built around something with a geographical significance.

The gun in the "Old West" was an everyday tool, especially for survival. I highly doubt the terms OC and CC or IWB were ever used. Because of being an everyday tool, a gun was just holstered OC because it was too large otherwise. But the person needed to quickly grab his gun to fend off a rattlesnake on the trail, large animals at night, hostile people, whether they may have been Native Americans, outlaws, drunks or even desperate people trying to survive in a very rugged environment.

A LEO carrying OC has always been the norm, again, because that is the LEO's tool and he/she needs to be able to quickly access the weapon.

A gun is not an everyday tool as it once was, to the majority of people. That is why it will probably never again be as customary to see folks OC. Sure there will be more gradual acceptance but the reluctance will always be there.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Why draw un-needed attention to yourself by anyone?

Because sometimes we like to sit in the front of the bus or at the lunch counter. Sometimes we exercise our civil rights to exercise our civil rights.

 

[mk2ja]

Personally, I'd like to see INGO have a thread of "Where did you choose to go unarmed today?"

Done: https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...se/108286-where_did_you_go_unarmed_today.html


ETA - Oh crap! I didn't finish reading your post about NOT making that thread! Sorry, Bill! Feel free to close/delete as necessary.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

The gun in the "Old West" was an everyday tool, especially for survival.

Pistols, not so much. Pistols were commonly prohibited and were not commonly carried, even by law enforcement.

Moseying down the street with dual wielding six shooters is a myth of the Horse Operas of the 1950s.

I highly doubt the terms OC and CC or IWB were ever used.

Actually the carrying of concealed weapons was used . . . in criminal statutes (Indiana prohibited concealed weapons shortly after statehood in 1817). Two hundred years ago the carrying of concealed weapons was frowned on by society.

 

[ATM]

I just don't understand why some people are in such need of attention to open carry. Why draw un-needed attention to yourself by anyone?

Have you actually read any of the answers to your question?

If so, how can you still not understand that there are valid reasons whether you agree with them or not?

 

[Pilot]

Because sometimes we like to sit in the front of the bus or at the lunch counter. Sometimes we exercise our civil rights to exercise our civil rights.

I understand that, but there are other ways to exercise civil rights that doing something that DOES make the average citizen uneasy. You cant be selfish and only think of yourself, there are others who may feel fear when they see a weapon in public. And law enforcement have every reason to be afraid when they see a gun. You NEVER know how crazy people are. The person may have a LTCH and may appear to be an average Joe. But inside he could be insane. Police have to consider that possibility when they see a gun, as we all have to consider it. Why make everyone feel uneasy just to prove a point or because you are not breaking a law in doing so?

 

[Son of Liberty]

I've carried every day for forty years.
Never OC'd.
I saw no need to impress anyone by exposing my firearm.
Never had a hassle.
Never had a problem.
Sorry, but no sympathy for anyone who does have a problem.
There's a great deal of responsibility that goes with carrying the power of life and death with you. And that's EXACTLY what carrying a side arm confers.
Just because something is legal doesn't mean that you are required to do it in a manner that scares the average Citizen, who usually see a gun as a threat.

Mike[/quo


Your right mike we should all bow to the fears and misconceptations of the uninformed and scared public. Hell why stop there lets change and give up other rights that might scare the public, people might be scared of things you say using the first amendment right, should we stop you or anyone else from having it.

If the average citizen is scared when they see a gun, then that average citizen is an idiot, and should go back to school so that they may learn the rights that our fellow countrymen have fought and died to keep.