First Confrontation with LEO while OCing

[Pilot]

Have you actually read any of the answers to your question?

If so, how can you still not understand that there are valid reasons whether you agree with them or not?

But your reasons are not those that protect and serve anyone else. Why make others uneasy by carrying in public like that? They only serve your own purposes and do no good for anyone.

I think we all can agree we enjoy our guns. But we also have to understand that others will not share the same love for them as we do. We can't do things that blatantly make them uncomfortable. When we do, it only makes our hobby appear to be dangerous to the public. Do you see my point?

 

[Son of Liberty]

I understand that, but there are other ways to exercise civil rights that doing something that DOES make the average citizen uneasy. You cant be selfish and only think of yourself, there are others who may feel fear when they see a weapon in public. And law enforcement have every reason to be afraid when they see a gun. You NEVER know how crazy people are. The person may have a LTCH and may appear to be an average Joe. But inside he could be insane. Police have to consider that possibility when they see a gun, as we all have to consider it. Why make everyone feel uneasy just to prove a point or because you are not breaking a law in doing so?

Why change the way you do things, because of a few scared ignorant people? BTW using your philosphy every cop I see should be considered a possible threat. Why? Because I don't know them and they have a gun.

 

[sj kahr k40]

I understand that, but there are other ways to exercise civil rights that doing something that DOES make the average citizen uneasy. You cant be selfish and only think of yourself, there are others who may feel fear when they see a weapon in public. And law enforcement have every reason to be afraid when they see a gun. You NEVER know how crazy people are. The person may have a LTCH and may appear to be an average Joe. But inside he could be insane. Police have to consider that possibility when they see a gun, as we all have to consider it. Why make everyone feel uneasy just to prove a point or because you are not breaking a law in doing so?

Airplanes make a percentage of the average people fearful, would you consider not being a pilot to make other people feel better?

 

[Pilot]

Why change the way you do things, because of a few scared ignorant people? BTW using your philosphy every cop I see should be considered a possible threat. Why? Because I don't know them and they have a gun.

At least you know law enforcement have been screened somewhat. Sure, there are bad cops, but the majority uphold their job and protect and serve.

So if someone has a fear of flying and comes to me and addresses that fear I should not try and put their mind at ease? If they say they cant get on the plane and want to be rebooked for a later flight so they can try and relax, I should say tough luck get on or lose your money?

The sad truth is that people see guns as dangerous and they see the holder of the gun as a threat. You aren't going to change that in most people. So why try and make them uneasy by wearing it so they can see it?

Does it make you feel cool to wear it openly and display it? Do you really think it is a deterrent?

 

[mk2ja]

When we do [things that blatantly make them uncomfortable], it only makes our hobby appear to be dangerous to the public. Do you see my point?

One of the very reasons that I do OC so frequently is to help people learn through observation that our hobby -- nay, more than a hobby, a way of life -- is LESS dangerous than their prejudices would have them believe.

Disclaimer: I edited your post to make more clear what I think you were saying, and my post is based on that understanding. If I'm misunderstanding, don't shoot me! Let's get that straightened out instead, then once I understand you, I may make a more intelligent reply.

 

[Pilot]

Airplanes make a percentage of the average people fearful, would you consider not being a pilot to make other people feel better?

You are talking apples and oranges. That statement does not even coincide with the conversation.

My aircraft isn't going to scare them if they are not getting on it.

 

[sj kahr k40]

Pilot the one thing I think you fail to grasp is that a very small percentage of people even realize that there are people OCing around them, and of those that notice very few are so afraid as to notify LEO's.

I can say that because I have OCed for 19 years and have had a few interactions with LEO's because of it.

 

[printcraft]

...
My aircraft isn't going to scare them if they are not getting on it.

On the contrary, those things are freakin HUGE.
Ever stand next to one?? I'm afraid they will crush me if I get to close to one.
Not to mention that when I see one flying overhead I'm afraid it might drop out
of the sky at any second due to a bird strike or a drunk pilot.

 

[sj kahr k40]

You are talking apples and oranges. That statement does not even coincide with the conversation.

My aircraft isn't going to scare them if they are not getting on it.

I know a few people that cringe every time they see an airplane, so yes your airplane does scare people.

And I think it does coincide with the conversation, why would COers change their ways to make a tiny percentage of people feel better?

 

[ATM]

But your reasons are not those that protect and serve anyone else. Why make others uneasy by carrying in public like that? They only serve your own purposes and do no good for anyone.

Perhaps our purposes differ. One purpose is to not be a victim of violent crime. Another is to make carry a more frequent sight in the hopes of normalizing the sight of carry and smashing some ridiculous stereotypes and myths. I am rarely on a mission to hide, blend in or appear weaker than I am.

I think we all can agree we enjoy our guns. But we also have to understand that others will not share the same love for them as we do. We can't do things that blatantly make them uncomfortable. When we do, it only makes our hobby appear to be dangerous to the public. Do you see my point?

I don't make them uncomfortable, I just expose their discomfort with an object. By continuing to go about my business peaceably yet visibly armed, I am actually confounding their silly notion that I am a danger just because I am carrying. They can't justify the myths because I don't harm anyone before I leave. They simply have to deal with (and hopefully accept) the fact that I was not, in fact, a threat to them.

 

[printcraft]

I know a few people that cringe every time they see an airplane, so yes your airplane does scare people.

And I think it does coincide with the conversation, why would COers change their ways to make a tiny percentage of people feel better?

YOU SEE!!!! Proof right there that I am not alone in my fear.

 

[mk2ja]

At least you know law enforcement have been screened somewhat. Sure, there are bad cops, but the majority uphold their job and protect and serve.

So if someone has a fear of flying and comes to me and addresses that fear I should not try and put their mind at ease? If they say they cant get on the plane and want to be rebooked for a later flight so they can try and relax, I should say tough luck get on or lose your money?

The sad truth is that people see guns as dangerous and they see the holder of the gun as a threat. You aren't going to change that in most people. So why try and make them uneasy by wearing it so they can see it?

Does it make you feel cool to wear it openly and display it? Do you really think it is a deterrent?

I might be misreading, but I get the impression you're taking one attitude about nervous fliers and another about nervous unarmed citizens.

You have it phrased as a question, but it looks like you're saying that if somebody tells you they are uneasy about flying, you do try to ease their mind about it, and perhaps you may even see about helping them get bumped to a later flight so they don't have to simply lose their money. Yet, when it comes to dealing with citizens who are ignorant about guns, you would rather just shut up and let them go on about their business. Am I understanding you correctly?

I do take the opportunity to help educate people whenever I can offer them good information. Examples of things I talk about with people in an attempt to change their minds: why I carry for protection; why the health care "reform" was a bad idea; why the Fort Wayne smoking ban was a bad idea; why I've placed my faith in Jesus Christ; why I don't get drunk; why I drive a stickshift; and there are more. Taking an attitude of, "Aw, heck, I can't change their minds, so I may as well just not let them know what I really think and I should even change my behaviour so they won't find out what I think", just ain't my style. But, I recognize that not everybody is so prone to having discussions as I, so you are of course more than welcome to take maintain that kid of attitude if you please.

No, I don't carry to make myself feel cool. Yes, I do really think it is a deterrent. And I think it'd be an even better deterrent if ever more citizens started carrying openly as it would help the common criminal (yes, there are those whom it would not deter as much as others, but their number is smaller) realize that the business of crime may cost them dearly.

 

[Bill of Rights]

I understand that, but there are other ways to exercise civil rights that doing something that DOES make the average citizen uneasy. You cant be selfish and only think of yourself, there are others who may feel fear when they see a weapon in public. And law enforcement have every reason to be afraid when they see a gun. You NEVER know how crazy people are. The person may have a LTCH and may appear to be an average Joe. But inside he could be insane. Police have to consider that possibility when they see a gun, as we all have to consider it. Why make everyone feel uneasy just to prove a point or because you are not breaking a law in doing so?

Pilot, you do understand that having Black people sitting at the lunch counter or the front of the bus or using "White" bathrooms and water fountains, to say nothing of having people of different races wanting to be together and even *GASP!* to marry made many people uneasy, right?

It was not until 1968 (I think; within a couple of years anyway) that a White man was allowed to kiss a Black woman on television (William Shatner/Nichelle Nichols, Star Trek, "Plato's Stepchildren") and even then, it was in the context of their behavior being telekinetically controlled by others.

Further, Rosa Parks, MLK, etc. WERE thinking of others besides themselves: They were thinking of the generations that followed them. They were thinking of a day like today when there are no "Black" or "White" bathrooms, there are only bathrooms.

To carry a firearm openly today is not so dissimilar... it's just the fight of today, and with fewer people fighting it. A peaceable, lawful gun owner should not be required to hide his pistol any more than he has to hide his watch, his knife clip, or his cell phone clipped to his belt.

That's how I see it, anyway.

Blessings,
Bill

 

[PatriotPride]

I understand that, but there are other ways to exercise civil rights that doing something that DOES make the average citizen uneasy. You cant be selfish and only think of yourself, there are others who may feel fear when they see a weapon in public. And law enforcement have every reason to be afraid when they see a gun. You NEVER know how crazy people are. The person may have a LTCH and may appear to be an average Joe. But inside he could be insane. Police have to consider that possibility when they see a gun, as we all have to consider it. Why make everyone feel uneasy just to prove a point or because you are not breaking a law in doing so?

And HERE is where I have a problem. THIS is a prime example of how POLITICAL CORRECTNESS is destroying this country. I'll say this as simply as I can: I do NOT care if OCing makes someone uncomfortable. I. Do. Not. Care. I say this politely and firmly. It is the very epitome of selfish to expect gun-owners to conceal their firearm when they step into the public's view. I happen to find it offensive that it is considered "selfish" of me to exercise a right...a right which is in NO way harming another person. I am VERY uncomfortable with MANY things that I witness in public, but I concede that it is their right(s) and I leave it alone. Give respect, get respect, as the old adage goes.

I have to question just WHAT is so offensive about carrying a firearm openly. For the life of me I do not understand.

I have to question WHEN, if ever, it became a requirement that in the course of participating in a lawful activity I must provide for the comfort and ease of those around me. I go about my business politely, and I keep to myself unless engaged in conversation by a curious person regarding my firearm. If the view of an open firearm on my hip offends someone, then that is their issue, and their's alone, to deal with. Heck, if they want to come speak with me about it, I am more than happy to discuss is civilly. Take this example: A few days ago I was at WalMart to return a defective item. While discussing the defective product with the cashier (who was completely at ease) a woman walked up behind me and exclaimed "Oh my God!!!!" loud enough for half the store to hear. The cashier was gracious enough to ignore her (other than rolling her eyes and smiling at me) and continue her business with me. According to my fiancee (I did not bother turning to acknowledge) the woman had a look of pure anger on her face. Her husband was embarrassed and pretended not to hear her as he shuffled off. Who was rude/offensive/attention-seeking in this situation? Had the woman behaved like an adult, and attempted to engage me in a civil discussion when my business was concluded, I would have had no qualms with discussing the matter with her.

I will say this as respectfully as I can: if a LEO is fearful at the mere sight of a handgun carried peaceably on a "civilian's" person, then it is time that they find another line of work. The presence of a lawfully and peaceable carried firearm SHOULD provide an officer no more fear than a (seemingly) unarmed person. The presence of a lawfully carried firearm is NOT an indicator that a person may or may not be crazy...not even remotely. I keep in mind that ALL persons I encounter may be mentally "unhinged" so to speak, not just those with firearms that are visible to me. To behave otherwise is to severely limit yourself.

While some OC to prove a point, I myself do not. It would be FANTASTIC if people would wake up and realize that there is nothing wrong with the visible carrying of a firearm, but that is not the reason why I mostly OC. I OC for my comfort, convenience, and deterrence.

I have absolutely no problem discussing OC vs CC vs No Carry, as long as both sides keep it civil. This seems to be the point that most miss.

 

[Bill of Rights]

But your reasons are not those that protect and serve anyone else. Why make others uneasy by carrying in public like that? They only serve your own purposes and do no good for anyone.

I think we all can agree we enjoy our guns. But we also have to understand that others will not share the same love for them as we do. We can't do things that blatantly make them uncomfortable. When we do, it only makes our hobby appear to be dangerous to the public. Do you see my point?

Ever see the "Bill of No Rights"? One of the first, if memory serves, and definitely one of my favorite lines in it is, "You do not have the right to never be offended." I would paraphrase that to "You do not have the right to never be uncomfortable." Why does someone else's discomfort dictate my exercise of my rights? I'm not telling them they MUST carry openly or at all, but they are telling me that I can't carry openly and they'd prefer I not carry at all. How is that right? How is that respectful of anyone's rights or purposes other than their own?

Blessings,
Bill

 

[Son of Liberty]

At least you know law enforcement have been screened somewhat. Sure, there are bad cops, but the majority uphold their job and protect and serve.

So if someone has a fear of flying and comes to me and addresses that fear I should not try and put their mind at ease? If they say they cant get on the plane and want to be rebooked for a later flight so they can try and relax, I should say tough luck get on or lose your money?

The sad truth is that people see guns as dangerous and they see the holder of the gun as a threat. You aren't going to change that in most people. So why try and make them uneasy by wearing it so they can see it?

Does it make you feel cool to wear it openly and display it? Do you really think it is a deterrent?

It dosen't make me feel cool, I was cooler than a polar bears toe nails, well before I ever owned a gun. I know for a fact it's a deterrent.
I'll tell you what you keep on feeding the fear of guns monster, and I will keep on using my rights the way they are supposed to be used.

You also make the assumption that everyone who OC's is trying to be cool or tough. Really broad strokes there buddy.

If these folks don't like open carry than they can get up and take their asses out of whatever establishment I happen to be in with them.
I will be damned if Im going to bow to anyone, cop or otherwise when it comes to the rights we have.

 

[Bill of Rights]

Perhaps our purposes differ. One purpose is to not be a victim of violent crime. Another is to make carry a more frequent sight in the hopes of normalizing the sight of carry and smashing some ridiculous stereotypes and myths. I am rarely on a mission to hide, blend in or appear weaker than I am.

I don't make them uncomfortable, I just expose their discomfort with an object. By continuing to go about my business peaceably yet visibly armed, I am actually confounding their silly notion that I am a danger just because I am carrying. They can't justify the myths because I don't harm anyone before I leave. They simply have to deal with (and hopefully accept) the fact that I was not, in fact, a threat to them.

True. And that you not only go about your business and harm no one, but that you're polite, friendly, and easygoing in the process. You give those who would consider you a threat nothing on which to hang their hat, and they're forced to face the reality that... "Oh. Maybe I need to reconsider that idea." It won't happen with only one occurrence. They'll have to see it numerous times amongst numerous situations. When the evidence before them leaves them no choice, most will change their perception.


As long as you don't SING!

Blessings,
Bill

 

[Joe Williams]

My post was not necessarily aimed toward the OP. Nor did I even single out the OP in my post. But I have seen/read on this forum(not just this thread) too many rant and rave because someone was stopped or singled out due to the fact that they OC'd. I still stand by it. IF you OC, EXPECT the extra attention that you are going to garner from it.

I too think the OP did just fine in his handling of being asked for his LTCH by the way.

"Expect" to be hassled? Sure.

Tolerate it? Hell no.

 

[Jack Ryan]

I agree with you!
I'm not opposed to anyone legally OC'ing.
However.
It's just not practical to believe that you can do so without drawing attention to yourself.
...
I'm not responsible for other peoples reactions to a visible firearm.
...
Mike

Yes, THIS.

 

[Bill of Rights]

And HERE is where I have a problem. THIS is a prime example of how POLITICAL CORRECTNESS is destroying this country. I'll say this as simply as I can: I do NOT care if OCing makes someone uncomfortable. I. Do. Not. Care. I say this politely and firmly. It is the very epitome of selfish to expect gun-owners to conceal their firearm when they step into the public's view. I happen to find it offensive that it is considered "selfish" of me to exercise a right...a right which is in NO way harming another person. I am VERY uncomfortable with MANY things that I witness in public, but I concede that it is their right(s) and I leave it alone. Give respect, get respect, as the old adage goes.

I have to question just WHAT is so offensive about carrying a firearm openly. For the life of me I do not understand.

I have to question WHEN, if ever, it became a requirement that in the course of participating in a lawful activity I must provide for the comfort and ease of those around me. I go about my business politely, and I keep to myself unless engaged in conversation by a curious person regarding my firearm. If the view of an open firearm on my hip offends someone, then that is their issue, and their's alone, to deal with. Heck, if they want to come speak with me about it, I am more than happy to discuss is civilly. Take this example: A few days ago I was at WalMart to return a defective item. While discussing the defective product with the cashier (who was completely at ease) a woman walked up behind me and exclaimed "Oh my God!!!!" loud enough for half the store to hear. The cashier was gracious enough to ignore her (other than rolling her eyes and smiling at me) and continue her business with me. According to my fiancee (I did not bother turning to acknowledge) the woman had a look of pure anger on her face. Her husband was embarrassed and pretended not to hear her as he shuffled off. Who was rude/offensive/attention-seeking in this situation? Had the woman behaved like an adult, and attempted to engage me in a civil discussion when my business was concluded, I would have had no qualms with discussing the matter with her.

I will say this as respectfully as I can: if a LEO is fearful at the mere sight of a handgun carried peaceably on a "civilian's" person, then it is time that they find another line of work. The presence of a lawfully and peaceable carried firearm SHOULD provide an officer no more fear than a (seemingly) unarmed person. The presence of a lawfully carried firearm is NOT an indicator that a person may or may not be crazy...not even remotely. I keep in mind that ALL persons I encounter may be mentally "unhinged" so to speak, not just those with firearms that are visible to me. To behave otherwise is to severely limit yourself.

While some OC to prove a point, I myself do not. It would be FANTASTIC if people would wake up and realize that there is nothing wrong with the visible carrying of a firearm, but that is not the reason why I mostly OC. I OC for my comfort, convenience, and deterrence.

I have absolutely no problem discussing OC vs CC vs No Carry, as long as both sides keep it civil. This seems to be the point that most miss.

Nicely put, and repped.

I'd like to think that in your position, I'd have responded to the woman behind you by turning, smiling at her, and answering her "Oh my God!" with, "No Ma'am... I just work for Him." and turning back to complete my business.

Blessings,
Bill