Do the 4 rules always apply?

[printcraft]

So what is the solution if the rules are just to ruleie? < (not a word)
Check and see if its loaded every time? Do we throw out the 4 rules?
Take for instance this poor bastard....
[video=youtube;KUonA66btgI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUonA66btgI[/video]

 

[SteveM4A1]

So what is the solution if the rules are just to ruleie? < (not a word)
Check and see if its loaded every time? Do we throw out the 4 rules?
Take for instance this poor bastard....
[video=youtube;KUonA66btgI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUonA66btgI[/video]

Do people really not clear a weapon when it is handed to them? This just makes my head hurt.

 

[actaeon277]

An friend of a friend pulled the "it's not loaded" crap.
After pointing it at several people's heads he shot himself in the thigh, and ruining the couch and carpet.

At a town near me, a grandma was demonstrating gun safety with an "unloaded gun".
Put a hole in the ceiling.


Over my lifetime, I have read dozens and dozens of people shot while cleaning their "empty gun".


On the submarine I was on, topside watch launched a bullet into the parking lot from an "unloaded gun".


So why not take the safe route.
Some people act like it's a personal insult.


I used to work on a reactor (on previously mentioned sub) and now work with control systems that manipulate liquid steel.
Double checking, and safety are words too live by.

 

[printcraft]

Do people really not clear a weapon when it is handed to them? This just makes my head hurt.

He KNEW it wasn't loaded. True story.

 

[actaeon277]

Do people really not clear a weapon when it is handed to them? This just makes my head hurt.

At one of our NWI meet & shoots, I taught someone's kid to always check the condition of the gun, and still keep in mind the rules. I told him some people check the gun, but aren't really paying attention, so do it anyway. If the person gets insulted, too bad.
At another meet and shoot, his parents told me he was handed a gun at a gun store, and he checked it.
Man behind the counter told him "I already checked it."
He told the man, he was told to check it himself.

 

[actaeon277]

We have several members here work in gun stores.
One of them has a jar filled with bullets. The bullets come from guns handed to here that were "unloaded".

 

[actaeon277]

The rules are redundant for a reason.
Humans are imperfect.

 

[chipbennett]

I have no idea what implied purple is but I think fanning people with unloaded guns is OK.

How do the people you're muzzle-sweeping know that the firearm being pointed at them isn't loaded?

 

[chipbennett]

No one has ever been shot by an unloaded gun.

And how many people have been shot by a gun that the person wielding believed to be unloaded?

 

[chipbennett]

"Gun owners aren't even smart enough to know if their guns are loaded. I don't want them carrying guns around my kids."

Have you guys ever considered what goes through the minds of anti-gunners and how easy you make it for them to assume these things?

I couldn't care less what goes through the minds of anti-gunners.

Sounds a lot like what the antis are trying to do. "If we pass this law then gun violence will stop."

Your continual conflation of gun owners with antis is as tedious as it is ineffective. You're not winning any arguments, or friends, with such sophistry.

In reality, injury and death due to negligent firearms discharge happen at such low frequency that they are not even worth mentioning, as a matter of public policy. That doesn't mean that POTG shouldn't continue to educate and self-regulate, to ensure that negligent discharges remain as exceedingly rare as they are. (I do not believe it is possible to reduce the rate appreciably lower than it is currently; idiots will always be among us.)

 

[MohawkSlim]

He KNEW it wasn't loaded. True story.

If he would've known I bet he wouldn't have violated the other safety rules.

Do people really not clear a weapon when it is handed to them? This just makes my head hurt.

Apparently they do. They're probably the "treat every gun as if it's loaded" crowd.

He told the man, he was told to check it himself.

The very best way to determine if a gun is loaded.

I couldn't care less what goes through the minds of anti-gunners.



Your continual conflation of gun owners with antis is as tedious as it is ineffective. You're not winning any arguments, or friends, with such sophistry.

In reality, injury and death due to negligent firearms discharge happen at such low frequency that they are not even worth mentioning, as a matter of public policy. That doesn't mean that POTG shouldn't continue to educate and self-regulate, to ensure that negligent discharges remain as exceedingly rare as they are. (I do not believe it is possible to reduce the rate appreciably lower than it is currently; idiots will always be among us.)

If you don't understand the minds of antis how do you expect to overcome them? Sticking to your guns of, "It's my right!" isn't going to work forever. We're losing the PR battle as we subsidize birth rates in broken homes and the increasingly urban population relies more on big brother than self reliance. The current "bump" of new gun owners and those who aren't actually antis is still outpaced by those ignorant of firearms.

If we're going to win them over we have to appear to be smarter than what we currently are. "People get shot by unloaded guns." That's impossible - and they know it. So, when we say things like that we show how stupid we can be. "We shoot ourselves sometimes because guns are so dangerous. There's no way we can be trusted with them. You should take them all away." That's what they hear.

Pretending like it's irrelevant because they can't take away our rights is a strategy... though I'm not sure it's a good one.

 

[printcraft]

If he would've known I bet he wouldn't have violated the other safety rules. .....

Not a bet I'm willing to put my chips on.

Oh.......... she KNEW it was loaded too...........

[video=youtube;nDfNV9bJoSg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDfNV9bJoSg[/video]

 

[bwframe]

[video=youtube;o6Y7LIJm5gI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6Y7LIJm5gI[/video]

 

[VERT]

Oh snap BW pulled out the Clint video. Which is one of my favorites by the way! Counter argument will be that rules 2 and 3 would have prevented all of those accidents. That would also be correct. What the video did a great job of telling us is that handling gun in the real world is a "lifestyle change". A lot of people just don't get this and they don't understand the context. The first golden rule was that all guns are loaded. I asked a 4 rule guy one time if this was figurative or literal? The answer was yes! The point is rule one is supposed to emphasize the importance of the other rules. The 4 rules were codified by GunSite who teaches on a hot range. The 4 rules are life rules for the person carrying a fighting gun as part of their day to day routine. I like the 4 rules!

The NRA 3 rules do not cause me any grief. In fact I like them as well. NRA rules are better suited as range rules and teaching young or new shooters, etc. They are better because there is no confusion, they give specific direction.

Since people obviously can't stop arguing about this let me sum it up: Trigger Discipline and Muzzle Direction. Oh, and your gun is always somewhere and your responsibility. STOP doing dumb things with the guns. In Clints words I am not addressing you but rather the community at large.

Oh and holstered guns are safe. I should say a quality and mechanically safe gun in a proper holster is safe. I think there is a thread. So STOP buying ****ty guns and crappy holsters!!!! Learn to use your gear. Holsters are a safety device.

I do disagree with Clint in one area. Blue guns are not guns. I do agree that it is bad form to sweep students with blue guns or wave them around. In fact I can't think of a time when I have pointed a blue gun at a person who I have been teaching. I will let people point Blue Guns at me though. I bet $100 that Clint has participated in simnition training or used a Blue Gun to demonstrate a technique. That is why we have inert training devices.

 

[JettaKnight]

I come back three days later and this thread is still rolling?

Did anyone start working on the Tshirt design yet?

 

[ATM]

...The point is rule one is supposed to emphasize the importance of the other rules...

That may well have been the intent of keeping the failed rule, but the reality is that it continues to set up a weak (yet extremely widespread and persistent) cognitive personal excuse to ignore whatever instructive steps follow and, ultimately, to dismiss the need for safe gun handling when one believes that it's unloaded.

Memorizing and being able to quote a mantra does not make one a safe gun handler.

 

[chipbennett]

That may well have been the intent of keeping the failed rule, but the reality is that it continues to set up a weak (yet extremely widespread and persistent) cognitive personal excuse to ignore whatever instructive steps follow and, ultimately, to dismiss the need for safe gun handling when one believes that it's unloaded.

Memorizing and being able to quote a mantra does not make one a safe gun handler.

Perception, I suppose.

Rule #1 does exactly the opposite for me.

 

[ATM]

Perception, I suppose.

Rule #1 does exactly the opposite for me.

You're likely the type who would handle guns safely regardless. Do you agree that it may have (or has had) the effect I describe on folks more prone to risky or negligent behavior?

 

[chipbennett]

You're likely the type who would handle guns safely regardless. Do you agree that it may have (or has had) the effect I describe on folks more prone to risky or negligent behavior?

I think people are wont to act however they choose, and will use whatever means necessary to justify/defend their choices/behaviors. So, no: I don't agree that Rule #1 has had the effect you describe; though I will readily admit that there are likely many who would attempt to use Rule #1 to justify unsafe behavior.

 

[VERT]

Yeah I don't buy your theory ATM. Sorry Bub. Rule #1 should be the only rule we need in a perfect world. I actually prefer Treat All Guns as Though They are Loaded but I get the emphasis of how Col. Cooper coined his phrase. Now I will admit that the 4 rules does not work very well as a set of administrative range rules. Why because most shooting sports recognize or require a cold range. All guns can't be loaded if we tell people they have to unload them. At the very core of the issue there is really no difference between the 3 and 4 rules.