Do the 4 rules always apply?

[2A_Tom]

All I can say is "Your desire to feel does not trump my right to fan you with my finger on the trigger when I know it is not loaded."

 

[JettaKnight]

[commas added]

All I can say is, "Your desire to feel, does not trump my right to fan you with my finger on the trigger when I know it is not loaded."

LOLWUT?


So, my desire to feel (that I want to come home to my wife after the gun show), should not infringe on you "right" to act in a reckless and senseless manner. Did I just understand you?

I asked this in the other thread, but are you really claiming that you can act like the infamous instructor in the apartment because you know it's unloaded?

 

[MohawkSlim]

the rules are about developing a mindset and not as much about a stringent set of rules to follow.

Are you saying we don't have to follow the rules 100% of the time? It almost sounds as if you acknowledge there are times all four rules may not apply.

Driving an automobile is far more complex - and far more risky - than handling a firearm.

If firearms are so simple, why the necessity of treating unloaded firearms like they're still loaded 100% of the time? Typically when I'm eating a bratwurst I don't pretend like I taste mustard when there's no mustard on it just because "a bratwurst should taste like it has mustard on it."

I think we all have common ground in that we can say that an unloaded gun should not be treated in the same fashion as an inoperable gun (or Slim's brick). Right?

Wrong.

A gun without ammunition is inoperable. (Other than being a brick, of course.)

If a firearm is disassembled, it is no longer a firearm. Just like if you remove the blade from a table saw, it is no longer a table saw and so those rules no longer apply.

What if we removed the ammunition from the firearm? Would it still be able to shoot?

Every time I think people would be able to handle other infantry weapons like grenades and the like, I'm slowly reminded of why it wouldn't go over so well if people seriously argue over 4 simple rules.

This right here is why antis will eventually win out when it comes to things like banning "assault weapons" and "high capacity clips." As soon as a majority of people believe their fellow countrymen can't be trusted with "high power" weapons because they're too incompetent to be safe with them, they're gone.

 

[bwframe]

Arguing against standardly taught firearms safety rules by claiming they are anti-gun???

 

[MohawkSlim]

Arguing against standardly taught firearms safety rules by claiming they are anti-gun???

I didn't say they were anti-gun.

I said anti-gunners will use the logic of gun owners treating guns as more dangerous than they really are against them. When "we" say things like, "I can't tell if that gun is unloaded or not." What they hear is, "Gosh, those guys aren't even competent enough to operate simple mechanical devices. Do we really want to trust them with the power to take our lives?"

It's time for "us" to be smarter.

 

[bwframe]

I didn't say they were anti-gun.

I said anti-gunners will use the logic of gun owners treating guns as more dangerous than they really are against them. When "we" say things like, "I can't tell if that gun is unloaded or not." What they hear is, "Gosh, those guys aren't even competent enough to operate simple mechanical devices. Do we really want to trust them with the power to take our lives?"

It's time for "us" to be smarter.

This weak "anti-gun" argument has no place in this discussion of safely handling firearms and The Four Rules. Your argument against standard safety practices would actually qualify as fueling the anti's, if one were to go there. I won't though.

My advice to you friend is give up fighting this battle against The Four Rules of firearms safety. You won't win many converts, if any at all.
You are going to believe what you are going to believe, obviously that won't be changed at this time. Unless I'm mistaken, no one is jumping in on your side? You should take that for what it's worth.

There are lot's of arguments to be had on INGO. Arguing against standard firearm safety practices is a loser for all gun owners. Years down the road, you'll be glad you walked away from this one sir.

 

[MohawkSlim]

This weak "anti-gun" argument....

If the number of supporters is how you determine the strength of arguments I "hope" that "change" is working out for you.

 

[bwframe]

Just sold a receiver to a guy over the gun counter...

What gun shop do you work at sir?

 

[MohawkSlim]

What gun shop do you work at sir?

Indiana Army Surplus in Bedford.

Stop by sometime, I'll show you how to determine if a gun is unloaded.

 

[bwframe]

Indiana Army Surplus in Bedford.

Stop by sometime, I'll show you how to determine if a gun is unloaded.

Thank you for that information.

 

[2A_Tom]

[commas added]


LOLWUT?

So, my desire to feel (that I want to come home to my wife after the gun show), should not infringe on you "right" to act in a reckless and senseless manner. Did I just understand you?

I asked this in the other thread, but are you really claiming that you can act like the infamous instructor in the apartment because you know it's unloaded?

Aw Poop! Did I forget the purple, again?

 

[MohawkSlim]

I'm curious. What is the exact wording of this variation?

I have considered looking into RR, not so sure now.

Sorry I didn't reply to this before. The exact wording of the Revere's Riders Safety Rules -
1. ALWAYS keep the gun pointed in a safe direction
2. ALWAYS keep your finger off the trigger until you are ready to shoot
3. ALWAYS keep the gun unloaded until ready to use

I'm also sorry to hear you're not sure about looking into a volunteer organization just because someone on the internet disagrees with your opinions. I'll let you know I can disagree with your safety rules but when I'm on your range or at your training event I'm going to follow the safety rules you set forth. Revere's Riders is no different. When I'm volunteering with that organization I will adhere to the rules they set forth.

I hope you'll still look into Revere's Riders. We need safety-conscious volunteers!

 

[chipbennett]

If firearms are so simple, why the necessity of treating unloaded firearms like they're still loaded 100% of the time? Typically when I'm eating a bratwurst I don't pretend like I taste mustard when there's no mustard on it just because "a bratwurst should taste like it has mustard on it."

Nobody does that, nor does anyone advocate doing that, nor does Rule #1 imply that.

We've now discussed cars, bricks, and bratwurst. Do you have a meaningful argument to make?

 

[2A_Tom]

Are you saying we don't have to follow the rules 100% of the time? It almost sounds as if you acknowledge there are times all four rules may not apply.


If firearms are so simple, why the necessity of treating unloaded firearms like they're still loaded 100% of the time? Typically when I'm eating a bratwurst I don't pretend like I taste mustard when there's no mustard on it just because "a bratwurst should taste like it has mustard on it."

Nobody does that, nor does anyone advocate doing that, nor does Rule #1 imply that.

We've now discussed cars, bricks, and bratwurst. Do you have a meaningful argument to make?

The thing that perplexes me is, that when I said sarcastically that it is OK to fan people with my finger on the trigger if "I" know it's not loaded, it was the 3 rule people who couldn't see the implied purple when there was no rebuff from the 4 rule folks.

 

[VERT]

Sorry I didn't reply to this before. The exact wording of the Revere's Riders Safety Rules -
1. ALWAYS keep the gun pointed in a safe direction
2. ALWAYS keep your finger off the trigger until you are ready to shoot
3. ALWAYS keep the gun unloaded until ready to use

Ah the NRA three fundamental rules of firearms safety. The "3 rules" vs "4 rules" has been cause for much internet butt hurt. Now it has migrated from gun forums to Facebook. Gotta love social media.

For the record neither set of rules causes me any grief. I frequently use both interchangably and even compare and contrast. Just depends on the environment. Context is important. Oh and this discussion is silly.

 

[MohawkSlim]

The thing that perplexes me is, that when I said sarcastically that it is OK to fan people with my finger on the trigger if "I" know it's not loaded, it was the 3 rule people who couldn't see the implied purple when there was no rebuff from the 4 rule folks.

I have no idea what implied purple is but I think fanning people with unloaded guns is OK.

Guns don't work without ammunition. If you have some type of scenario set up where you and your buddies want to play force on force and you've cleared all your guns, more power to you. You're adults. Do whatever you want. It's not for me or anyone else on the internet to decide. Nor is it something that's any more unsafe than pointing bratwurst at each other.

As for the meaningful arguments in this thread it looks like everyone here, even the "The 4 Rules ALWAYS apply" folks, have envisioned a scenario where they may not apply. As such, we should all be able to agree, The 4 Rules do not always apply and there are situations and scenarios where it's OK to break them.

 

[printcraft]

It's not a matter of denying reality to treat a gun LIKE it is loaded all of the time even when you KNOW its not.
MANY people have been shot by someone that KNEW the gun was unloaded. IT'S ****ING MAGIC!!!

Mindset folks. Knowing something breeds complacency on a subconscious level.
Your actions will be come automatic. For good or bad that is how we are programed.

 

[MohawkSlim]

No one has ever been shot by an unloaded gun.

 

[printcraft]

No one has ever been shot by an unloaded gun.

Yeah, no kidding? They have had their dick shot off by someone that KNEW it was unloaded though.

 

[MohawkSlim]

"Gun owners aren't even smart enough to know if their guns are loaded. I don't want them carrying guns around my kids."

Have you guys ever considered what goes through the minds of anti-gunners and how easy you make it for them to assume these things? Instead of dumbing down the whole gun owning public, perhaps we should be a little more critical of ourselves when we make mistakes. Instead of holding the 100 million gun owners who shot no one today accountable, why not hold the responsible party accountable? "You made a boneheaded move. Own it. Train it out. Move on."

Yet here we are, discussing this yet again, because some people would rather pretend like we've fixed the issue by making a "rule" than by actually fixing the issue. "If we treat all guns as if they're always loaded then nobody will accidentally shoot things anymore." Sounds a lot like what the antis are trying to do. "If we pass this law then gun violence will stop."