Did world war 3 just start?

[88GT]

Russia has a stock market. Force isn't the only thing that will stop Putin. This really doesn't fall on us, so I wish that simpleton in the,WH would point that out. The people that have the REAL power to sway Putin's opinion, are in the EU. They could ruin Russia with a, few strokes of a pen, but they (like always), are being greedy and thinking about the economic impact on their economies. That's what makes this so infuriating. The reliance on each other's economies, was built EXACTLY for this reason. That way loss of money replaces loss of life, and conflicts reduced. The EU is showing that they don't want to play that game, because they don't like the expected losses if they turn their back on Russia. Even more baffling, is that the defacto leader of the EU, Germany, is reluctant to stick it to Russia. We must have really stuck it to them, in WW2, that even the Sie Germans are afraid to make a stand.

The idea that the Soviet Union Re-mix is going to be hurt by an economic influence from the EU is somewhat ludicrous.

 

[Kutnupe14]

The idea that the Soviet Union Re-mix is going to be hurt by an economic influence from the EU is somewhat ludicrous.

Only because the EU won't take the steps needed. If they had the stones, they could be amazingly effective. But as I said, the EU doesn't have the courage.

 

[88GT]

Only because the EU won't take the steps needed. If they had the stones, they could be amazingly effective. But as I said, the EU doesn't have the courage.

No, I don't think the EU has any leverage on Russia. But assuming they do, what exactly would that be, and how does it translate to bringing Russia to its knees?

 

[smokingman]

Seems the "world" is supporting Russia not the USA.
At the very least they are no longer supporting the USA.Foreigners Sell A Record Amount Of Treasurys Held By The Fed In Past Week | Zero Hedge

104.5 billion in US treasury notes sold the week ending march 12,2014.With China dumping the largest amount of US treasuries in a single week ever.This is nearly 3 times the amount of US treasury notes sold in any week since the inception of the US Treasury note.Russia accounted for only 4.3 billion of the sales.
http://www.seattlepi.com/technology...Sold-100-Billion-Of-US-Treasuries-5318866.php

Ron Paul noted yesterday.
"The West will claim "everything Putin does is illegal," but while Ron Paul notes "he's no angel," the former congressman adds Putin "has some law on his side." America has a right of secession and Crimea should have it too - "it's such a facade," Paul explains, noting that "contracts, and agreements, and treaties" linked to the Sevastopol base provide Putin with a legal basis to militarily occupy Crimea(with up to 25 thousand troops,Russia currently has only 16 thousand in Ukraine), "Russia could accuse America of occupying Cuba because it, too, holds a lease on the land around the Guantanamo Bay prison."

China threw in their two cents yesterday in Germany.
"Sanctions could lead to retaliatory action, and that would trigger a spiral with unforeseeable consequences," warns China's envoy to Germany adding that "we don't see any point in sanctions."Ambassador Shi Mingde urged patience saying "the door is still open" for diplomacy.China of course has been selling record amounts of US paper,though the stats lag by a week.The last report showed the single largest week of selling by China ever.

India has come out in full support of Russian actions.
When asked for India’s official assessment of the events in Ukraine, National Security Adviser Shivshankar Menon responded:
“We hope that whatever internal issues there are within Ukraine are settled peacefully, and the broader issues of reconciling various interests involved, and there are legitimate Russian and other interests involved…. We hope those are discussed, negotiated and that there is a satisfactory resolution to them.”Telegraph India offers another reason. According to the report cited above, Indian officials have told Telegraph India that, in the newspaper’s words, Delhi is “convinced that the West’s tacit support for a series of attempted coups against democratically elected governments — in Egypt, Thailand and now Ukraine — has only weakened democratic roots in these countries.”

 

[KellyinAvon]

So today Lerch said there would be “very serious series of steps” and "very serious" consequences on Monday. Yeah I'm sure Putin is shaking in his KGB-issue boots.

 

[KG1]

I wonder if they'll extend the Monday deadline like the obamacare mandate?

 

[gravitas73]

Does the Ukraine still have nukes?

Nope. Was part of them breaking up. They agreed to give up their nukes if the US and Russia both promised to not invade their sovereignty.

This is why nuclear proliferation does not work and we are being extremely hypocritical and immoral by wanting to prevent other countries from gaining them because then we'd have to actually respect them, like Pakistan.

 

[Libertarian01]

Nope. Was part of them breaking up. They agreed to give up their nukes if the US and Russia both promised to not invade their sovereignty.

This is why nuclear proliferation does not work and we are being extremely hypocritical and immoral by wanting to prevent other countries from gaining them because then we'd have to actually respect them, like Pakistan.

To All,

I have to agree with this 100%. A nation with the capability to destroy your army of 25k troops with a single shot isn't as likely to be attacked or invaded as one without such weapons in its arsenal.

The Ukraine allowed itself to become vulnerable by trusting other nations to look after its own self interest. This was a strategic error that may well cost them far more than they bargained for. It cost Georgia quite a bit.

In all honesty this issue is NOT black and white. President Victor Yanukovych was/is their legally DEMOCRATICALLY elected leader! While there was a vote to remove him, I am highly suspicious that it was done for legal reasons set forth under Ukrainian law. I believe we simply saw the remaining Ukrainian politicians kowtowing to the mob.

He (Yanukovych) was leveraging for the best deal for Ukraine between Europe and Russia. When Russia offered a 1/3 discount on gas and $15 Billion in buying Ukrainian bonds, the Europeans and the United States offered, uh, nothing! With Ukraine suffering severe financial woes President Yanukovych cut the best deal for his country which was his job.

I do not know if he was moving in the best long term direction or not. Neither does the mob. Just because they were unhappy with his course of action gave them every right to demonstrate, but NOT to force him from office outside of legal means!

If we are to remain objective in this there are no angels or demons, no black or white, only the grey mist of politics.

Regards,

Doug

 

[mrjarrell]

Who couldn't have seen the vote going this way? Surprised at China's lack of support for their Russian buddies, tho. Looks like most of the civilised world is against Russia on this one.

Russia isolated over Crimea after UN vote - Europe - Al Jazeera English

 

[Libertarian01]

Who couldn't have seen the vote going this way? Surprised at China's lack of support for their Russian buddies, tho. Looks like most of the civilised world is against Russia on this one.

Russia isolated over Crimea after UN vote - Europe - Al Jazeera English

To MrJarrell (et alia),

I am not quite surprised at China over this.

China has become a lot more capitalistic in the last several decades than even they want to admit. Any disruption in the market now has a greater impact on China's economy and worldwide trade that they are becoming more heavily involved in.

As nations grow wealthy they seek stability, which gives them the ability to do long term planning. President Putin is being short sighted and too narrowly focused. He is still living in the past and doesn't see the damage from blowback this can cause Russia. China on the other hand is looking at the long term and being much more thoughtful.

I think once we get rid of the old guard in a lot of countries we will see a potential improvement in stability.

Regards,

Doug

 

[smokingman]

.dupe

 

[smokingman]

Who couldn't have seen the vote going this way? Surprised at China's lack of support for their Russian buddies, tho. Looks like most of the civilised world is against Russia on this one.

Russia isolated over Crimea after UN vote - Europe - Al Jazeera English

Not exactly.This was a vote by the 15 members of the UN Security council on a draft proposal submitted by the USA.It was not a full UN General Assembly vote(193 nations)current members of the security council are listed below.Less Australia and Luxemburg you may notice every other member of the security council receives aid in the form of money or military equipment from either the USA or Great Britain.

• five permanent members: China, France, Russian Federation, the United Kingdom, and the United States,
• and ten non-permanent members elected for two-year terms by the General Assembly (with end of term date):
  • Argentina (2014)
  • Australia (2014)
  • Chad (2015)
  • Chile (2015)
  • Jordan (2015)
  • Lithuania (2015)
  • Luxembourg (2014)
  • Nigeria (2015)
  • Republic of Korea (2014)
  • Rwanda (2014)

To say this vote has isolated Russia is a bit much.It was as expected.China choose to not vote because their was no need as one of the 5 permanent members had already voted no(Russia).In most cases at the UN when a permanent member votes no the voting is closed.The USA has voted no thousands of times.The 5 permanent members vote first.If one votes no,the vote is normally closed as it can not pass.In this case though the vote was kept open.Not because it could be changed after Russia voted no,but for the publicity it could generate.

Why no mention of the USA veto of a resolution by German to recognize the Venice council opinion on the legality of the current government in Ukraine? The Venice Council(the EU constitutional court) was holding hearings on Ukraine.It would have either legitimized the current government in Ukraine or declared it an illegal coup(more likely).Since the US choose to veto the draft the Venice Council has since postponed the hearings indefinitely.

All of this is rather political.In an agreement with the USA,Mikhail Gorbachev agreed to allow Germany to unify peacefully if NATO agreed to not expand toward Russia.An agreement already broken(Poland,Hungary,and Czech).

As for Ukraine.The population sees NATO as a threat,not protection.A Gallup poll conducted in October 2008 showed that 45% associated NATO as a threat to their country, while only 15% associated it with protection.The current government wants membership into NATO and the EU.

It is a much more complicated situation than the main stream media portray.It is not a simple situation,and very well could cause a huge shift in global power either in favor of the USA or Russia.Three nuclear powers oppose the USA on Ukraine(Russia,China,and India)and none of those three have recognized the current government of Ukraine as legitimate.The USA has recognized it was a coup,and as such has barred the sale of weapons to Ukraine(per international law),but is recognizing the new government diplomatically.


"The Svoboda party, which gained five key positions in the new Ukrainian government, including deputy prime minister, minister of defence and prosecutor general. Svoboda’s call to abolish the autonomy that protects Crimea’s Russian heritage and its push for a parliamentary vote that downgraded the status of the Russian language are flagrantly provocative to Ukraine’s millions of ethnic Russians, and incredibly stupid as the first steps of a new government in a divided country. These moves, more than Russian propaganda, prompted broad Crimean unease. Recall that this crisis began when Ukraine’s then-president Viktor Yanukovych retreated on a deal toward European integration. Are the Europe-aspiring Ukrainians who now vote to restrict Russians’ cultural-language rights even dimly aware that as part of the European Union such minority rights would have to be expanded, not curtailed?

Why wouldn’t we ease the fears of the Russians by forcefully denouncing the ethno-nationalists and embracing minority rights as vital to the stable Ukrainian democracy that we seek to promote? Given our own hypocrisy — don’t violate agreements (except the one not to expand NATO eastward), don’t invade countries on phony pretexts (except Iraq) and don’t support minority secession movements (except Kosovo) — why wouldn’t we want to restore U.S. credibility by living up to our principles in this critical case?

The European Parliament in 2012 condemned Svoboda’s racism, anti-Semitism and xenophobia as “against the EU’s fundamental values and principles.” The U.S. should not hesitate to do likewise now. It is not only the right thing to do, it would also open a door to compromise with Russia over this dangerous crisis. To remain silent sends exactly the wrong message to extremists on both sides."

http://www.thestar.com/opinion/comm...a_menace_to_ukraine_as_putins_aggression.html


At least some US media is starting to recognize the fact we are supporting Neo Nazi's.

 

[Kutnupe14]

No, I don't think the EU has any leverage on Russia. But assuming they do, what exactly would that be, and how does it translate to bringing Russia to its knees?

I think it's clear you haven't look at the hard numbers concerning this subject. The EU accounts for more half all trade, and 75% of foreign investment. The Russia relies on the EU to provide them a HUGE amount of goods. And all the energy Russia sells to the EU? That money is then turned around to buy more EU products. Russia is the EU's THIRD largest trading partner, while the EU is Russia's FIRST. A boycott by the EU involving trade, would cripple the banking institutions in an already slowing Russian economy. To "try" and offset this, Russia would have to dig deep into it reserves, and start bailing out various institutions. And when I say "bailout," it would make ours look like giving a quarter to a failed lemonade stand.
The problem is, is that (even worse than us, believe it or not), Russia doesn't make anything (besides vodka, curved swords, and furry hats). A nation with no industry relies heavily on imports.
Russia thinks the energy it supplies to the EU is it's saving grace. They have apparently forgotten that it is us, the good ole USA, that is king in that market, and would love nothing more than to supply the EU due to Russia's miscues.
This doesn't even address the all the Russia business stocks tied up in EU hands/markets that could be banned from trading.

If you're asking real physical effects, the ruble would plummet, and inflation would take hold. Markets would be empty of their overpriced foods. Luxury items, which Russians have a taste for (electronics, films, clothing) would be out of their reach. The very rich would find themselves "rich," with money in foreign banks they can't access. This would take the current Russian recession, into a full blown depression, requiring the govt to spend massive amounts on social programs, or simply ignore the plight of millions of people.

There's NO economy in the world that can weather, without massive upheaval, the disappearance of 50% of it's economy overnight. Not a one. If the EU played that card, and were serious about implementing it, Russia would pack it up.

 

[KellyinAvon]

At the United Nations, Russia vetoed a Security Council resolution declaring the referendum illegal, and close ally China abstained in a sign of Moscow's isolation on the issue. Supporters of the U.S.-sponsored resolution knew that Russia would use its veto. But they put the resolution to a vote Saturday morning to show the strength of opposition in the 15-member Security Council to Moscow's takeover of Crimea. The final vote was 13 members in favor, China's abstention, and Russia as a permanent council member casting a veto.

What, now there won't be a terse e-mail?

 

[Blackhawk2001]

I think it's clear you haven't look at the hard numbers concerning this subject. The EU accounts for more half all trade, and 75% of foreign investment. The Russia relies on the EU to provide them a HUGE amount of goods. And all the energy Russia sells to the EU? That money is then turned around to buy more EU products. Russia is the EU's THIRD largest trading partner, while the EU is Russia's FIRST. A boycott by the EU involving trade, would cripple the banking institutions in an already slowing Russian economy. To "try" and offset this, Russia would have to dig deep into it reserves, and start bailing out various institutions. And when I say "bailout," it would make ours look like giving a quarter to a failed lemonade stand.
The problem is, is that (even worse than us, believe it or not), Russia doesn't make anything (besides vodka, curved swords, and furry hats). A nation with no industry relies heavily on imports.
Russia thinks the energy it supplies to the EU is it's saving grace. They have apparently forgotten that it is us, the good ole USA, that is king in that market, and would love nothing more than to supply the EU due to Russia's miscues.
This doesn't even address the all the Russia business stocks tied up in EU hands/markets that could be banned from trading.

If you're asking real physical effects, the ruble would plummet, and inflation would take hold. Markets would be empty of their overpriced foods. Luxury items, which Russians have a taste for (electronics, films, clothing) would be out of their reach. The very rich would find themselves "rich," with money in foreign banks they can't access. This would take the current Russian recession, into a full blown depression, requiring the govt to spend massive amounts on social programs, or simply ignore the plight of millions of people.

There's NO economy in the world that can weather, without massive upheaval, the disappearance of 50% of it's economy overnight. Not a one. If the EU played that card, and were serious about implementing it, Russia would pack it up.

THIS is another reason why China would stand by and watch worldwide sanctions against Russia with a smile. The US Dollar is in trouble, the Euro is strapped, and if Russia collapses AND China can control the internal forces working against its expansion, IT could become the world's "Superpower" - just as it has always believed it should be. Don't make the mistake of thinking there is any love lost between the Chinese Communists and the Russian oligarchs.

 

[mrjarrell]

Well, today's the day we get to see Russia slice off a piece of another country for themselves.

BBC News - Ukraine crisis: Crimea holds secession referendum

I think if the so called "ethnic Russians want to be part of Russia so bad then Russia should open its borders and let them cross freely to live in Russia, not slice off a piece of another country.

 

[firehawk1]

The interesting and telling part will be if the people in Crimea vote NOT to become part of Russia. Anyone actually believe Russia will say oh well and pack up all their equipment and troops and simply go home?

 

[BogWalker]

The interesting and telling part will be if the people in Crimea vote NOT to become part of Russia. Anyone actually believe Russia will say oh well and pack up all their equipment and troops and simply go home?

Men with clubs will more than likely ensure that the vote goes in Russia's favor.

 

[firehawk1]

Men with clubs will more than likely ensure that the vote goes in Russia's favor.

Exactly my point, anyone actually believe the vote will go against Russia? While anything is possible, IMO this "vote" is a sham. Wouldn't surprise me if there are more votes cast than people residing there.

 

[mrjarrell]

Doesn't matter who casts a vote, it only matters as to who counts them. This "vote" is a foregone conclusion.