Did world war 3 just start?

[mrjarrell]

Apparently Canada told the Russian troops in their country to gtfo, way to go Mr president, you've made America look like the biggest pansies in the whole western hemisphere....... Again.

OK. So lay out your plan for what you want Obama to do. Let's hear it.

 

[2ADMNLOVER]

Uhhhh, you clearly haven't been following this situation have you???

Not that closely , no .
70+ people have been killed so far in the fight to gain independence. People have been tortured, thrown in prison, and beaten.
A whole 70 + you say ? Out of a nation of how many ?
How have they not "been fighting for their country"? When Russia first invaded, people came out in DROVES to sign up for the military.
And what have they done since then ?
What Russia has been doing, it's a declaration of war. Clear cut, nuff said. The EU and the U.S. just don't have the balls to do anything about it. They're just hoping "diplomatic relations" can talk Russia out of Crimea.

Russia is pushing it at this point. They're trying to make the Ukrainians fire the first shot. That way, they can justify going in and taking the ENTIRE country over. Honestly, Russia is a bully, and bullies always get what they deserve. Do I want the U.S. to get involved? Not yet. However, if Russia keeps playing this game, something needs to be done.

Ukraine has been under a Russian blanket for the past 50 years. They don't have the hardware to take on the Russian army.
The Taliban and VC didn't have the "hardware" to take us on either , how'd that work out for us ?

If war breaks out, they will need help, or face inhalation.

If I were hearing reports of Russians getting sniped , caught by booby traps or IED's I might have some sympathy for the Ukrainians but until then I feel nothing for them .

If they aren't willing to make the Russians pay for every inch / yard they've taken then it sucks to be Ukrainian right about now and they should get used to being bent over and try to learn to like it .

 

[smokingman]

I wish more understood what was really going on.
I will try to explain.
The current government in Kiev came into power illegally.It was simply a coup.Svoboda had 10% of the seats in parliament.They had called 16 votes to boot the president in the last 3 months.None passed.

So they held a secret session on a Sunday.Voted on a new speaker(since the actual speaker was not invited along with everyone who had voted against removing the president).New speaker in place they voted to remove the president.Then after that vote immediately voted the new speaker as president.The voting the new speaker as president(currently recognized by the USA,Britian,and France)has no legal ground.You can not call a secret session and leave out 2/3 of the elected parliament and call it legal.It is not.

Aside from that they have a clear constitutional path to replace the president if one is killed or impeached.It does not involve the speaker of the parliament until 4th down the line,and no vote would even be needed if it made it that far.The vote was to put in place who the Svoboda party wanted in charge.For more information on Svoboda read back in this thread and see what the European Parliament had to say about them just 2 years ago(hint Neo Nazi's who no party should ever work with in Ukraine).

So now that Svoboda has the presidential office they have systematically replaced every elected official in the country with Svoboda members.Most of the former members of parliament have not been heard or seen from with a few being publicly arrested,but most have simply vanished.Not one elected official from Crimea is currently represented in parliament,though Crimea accounted for over 1/3 of the former parliament members.

The USA is supporting an illegal coup.Plain and simple.Why? Because they want to join the EU,and we have an energy interest. Chevron,Exxon,and BP all have deals in oil and gas with Ukraine.Deals where the profit where split with the Ukrainian government.The current west supported president has voided those deals with the help of his 1/3 full parliament.Giving energy companies a MUCH better deal than they had with the former Ukrainian government.

The USA is wrong.The reasons you are being told are lies.It is that simple.

 

[mrjarrell]

So says the Kremlin propaganda.

 

[88GT]

I think America was founded via an illegal coup.

 

[mrjarrell]

Indeed. And the coup leaders were called bandits, criminals and thugs.

 

[88GT]

And simultaneously, patriots, heroes, and founding fathers.

 

[smokingman]

So says the Kremlin propaganda.

Constitution of Ukraine - Title V - Official web-site of President of Ukraine Ukrainian constitution(in English).

Key parts.
Article 108.The President of Ukraine shall exercise his powers until the assumption of office by the newly elected President of Ukraine.
The authority of the President of Ukraine shall be subject to an early termination in cases of:
1) resignation;
2) inability to exercise presidential authority for health reasons;
3) removal from office by the procedure of impeachment;

4) his/her death.
The part that did not happen.

Article 111.The President of Ukraine may be removed from the office by the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine in compliance with a procedure of impeachment if he commits treason or other crime.
The issue of the removal of the President of Ukraine from the office in compliance with a procedure of impeachment shall be initiated by the majority of the constitutional membership of the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine.
The Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine shall establish a special ad hoc investigating commission, composed of special prosecutor and special investigators to conduct an investigation.
The conclusions and proposals of the ad hoc investigating commission shall be considered at the meeting of the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine.
On the ground of evidence, the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine shall, by at least two-thirds of its constitutional membership, adopt a decision to bring charges against the President of Ukraine.
The decision on the removal of the President of Ukraine from the office in compliance with the procedure of impeachment shall be adopted by the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine by at least three-quarters of its constitutional membership upon a review of the case by the Constitutional Court of Ukraine, and receipt of its opinion on the observance of the constitutional procedure of investigation and consideration of the case of impeachment, and upon a receipt of the opinion of the Supreme Court of Ukraine to the effect that the acts, of which the President of Ukraine is accused, contain elements of treason or other crime.



If and when he was impeached the PRIME MINISTER takes over as the sitting president per the Ukrainian constitution NOT a self voted in member of parliament,but since the prime minister did not support Ukraine joining the EU,and was not a member of Svoboda that was not allowed.The prime minister has since been replaced by Arseniy Petrovych Yatsenyuk of the Fatherland political party ( Batkivshchyna,which is pushing for native Ukrainians only in government,and first legal act was banning Russian as a second language).
Article 112.In the event of an early termination of the authority of the President of Ukraine in accordance with Articles 108, 109, 110 and 111 of this Constitution, the discharge of the duties of the President of Ukraine, for the period pending the elections and the assumption of the office by the next President of Ukraine, shall be vested on the Prime Minister of Ukraine. The Prime Minister of Ukraine, for the period of discharge of the duties of the President of Ukraine, may not exercise the powers stipulated by items 2, 6, 8, 10, 11, 12, 14, 15, 16, 22, 25, 27 of Article 106 of the Constitution of Ukraine.


Break down of key events including leaked US diplomat phone calls.Ukraine: New Evidence of a Coup
Think what you want.But clearly with no full parliament vote,a secret session,and the rules of their own constitution not followed it was a coup.

As for calling Svoboda Neo Nazi's.That was not just Russia.The European Parliament did as well in 2012.

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/...ed-to-bring-Ukraine-closer-to-the-EU-say-MEPs

MEPs voice concerns about the rising nationalistic sentiment in Ukraine which led to the election of the "Svoboda" Party to the Parliament of Ukraine. The EP recalls that racist, anti-Semitic and xenophobic views go against the EU’s fundamental values and principles and it appeals to pro-democratic parties in the Ukrainian Parliament not to associate with, endorse or form coalitions with this party.
Our own embassy in Ukraine raised concerns over Svoboda as well...in 2012 http://www.state.gov/j/drl/rls/irf/religiousfreedom/index.htm?year=2012&dlid=208378#wrapper

The U.S. ambassador, embassy officers, and other U.S. government officials maintained a dialogue with government and religious leaders and stayed in close contact with clerics, lay religious leaders, and NGOs that promoted religious freedom. U.S. government officials raised concerns over religious freedom and anti-Semitism with the presidential administration, Ministry of Interior, Ministry of Justice, Ministry of Foreign Affairs, members of parliament, political parties (including the Svoboda party), and local officials.

 

[mrjarrell]

I prefer to think of it as the Orange Revolution Pt 2.

 

[88GT]

That whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.

.

 

[smokingman]

.

Well when we are supporting a new Nazi state with the ambitions of nuclear weapons....it is time to rethink which side we are supply funds to I think.

March 1,2014 "We’ll regain our status as a nuclear power and that’ll change the conversation. Ukraine has all the technological means needed to create a nuclear arsenal – which would take us about three to six months,” Svoboda party MP Mikhail Golovko said

 

[smokingman]

.

Well when we are supporting a new Nazi state with the ambitions of nuclear weapons....it is time to rethink which side we are supplying funds to.

March 1,2014 "We’ll regain our status as a nuclear power and that’ll change the conversation. Ukraine has all the technological means needed to create a nuclear arsenal – which would take us about three to six months,” Svoboda party MP Mikhail Golovko said

 

[BogWalker]

I don't think we should fire a shot until the Ukrainians do. It isn't our call to tell them when to defend their nation. Now, when/if the shooting does start, I believe in materially helping them out as much as they can. I don't think I'd want to put combat troops down, but bombs, money, and guns would definitely be a welcome contribution.

We can't let Russia intimidate its way around, but we can't start a war if the nation we're fighting alongside isn't ready to fight.

 

[88GT]

Well when we are supporting a new Nazi state with the ambitions of nuclear weapons....it is time to rethink which side we are supply funds to I think.

March 1,2014 "We’ll regain our status as a nuclear power and that’ll change the conversation. Ukraine has all the technological means needed to create a nuclear arsenal – which would take us about three to six months,” Svoboda party MP Mikhail Golovko said

It's time to re-think supplying funds period.

The Ukrainians seem to know how to handle a government that doesn't represent the will of the people.

Question though: the referenced the Ukrainian constitution as it relates to the removal of a President that has been impeached or died. It doesn't address what happens when one is run out of town with his tail between his legs.

 

[Libertarian01]

To All,

I have heard some bashing of President Obama for "not doing enough" in some media circles amongst the talking head and political pundits.

He appears to be following the precedent of another President, Eisenhower, who after the Soviet Union invaded Hungary in 1956 moved to a "detente" with the Soviets.

Should any forget, President Eisenhower was that war hero dude who was known to kick butt in WWII. Very strong leadership from our former General against the Soviets... Wow, Ike sure showed Krushchev!

But wait, there is MORE! Another somewhat bullheaded President was in office when the Soviets again invaded a neighbor, Czechoslovakia in 1968. That President, Johnson, did a LOT more! He condemned them! Wow, LBJ sure showed Brezhnev. (By the by, to invade Czechoslovakia the Soviets first moved troops into Hungary)

Those were Presidents who perhaps didn't have the modern technology to spy on the Russians like we do today. With all of our modern, sophisticated technology at our disposal when Russia invaded Georgia in 2008 the State Dept under President George W Bush said they were "dismayed." Wow, W sure showed Putin!

There are a great many things we can criticize President Obama for. Obamacare is going to cripple our economy. His failure to produce real transparency in government is deplorable. His failure to control deficit spending is continuing a long line of catastrophic budgets. He has failed to instill the rule of law on Guantanamo Bay. He is failing to protect our civil liberties by allowing the NSA to run around without a leash. He is undermining States Rights by Federalizing sections of health care under Obamacare. He is not dealing with an IRS that DID target conservative groups. I could go on and on, these are just off the top of my head. However, the one (1) current issue that he has not failed on, yet, is the Russian invasion of Ukraine.

In some ways this is showing a desperate Putin. If he really has to invade a section of the Ukraine to keep his hold on power in the region this could be a sign of further loosing control in the Russian sphere.

I don't want any misunderstanding: What Russia under Putin has done is deplorable and all reasonable force should be brought to bear on the Russians to motivate them to withdraw. However, when ones opponent is near their own territory with short supply lines and has a full arsenal of WMDs (for REAL) this limits options, regrettably. There are options available, but it will take time to put the requisite pressure on Putin to get him to reverse course, if that is possible.

In the end Russia might well choke on this. The cost of the invasion, the loss of cooperation worldwide, the move of Europe to find alternatives to Russian fuel, etc. Other leaders inside Russia may become alarmed at their own precarious position and begin to remove support from Putin. All of this may give Putin a short term victory but in the long run prove disastrous for both him and Russia.

Regards,

Doug

 

[mrjarrell]

So, just who are the thugs? Looks like the Russians and their Cossack dogs are. Also of interest is Washington's words from yesterday.
BBC News - Pro-Ukraine activists beaten up in Crimea

UK Prime Minister David Cameron stressed the desire by all sides to work for a diplomatic solution.
Earlier, Foreign Secretary William Hague said Moscow had made a "big miscalculation" by entering Crimea.
The US warned Moscow on Saturday that any moves to annex Crimea would close the door to diplomacy.

With the door to diplomacy closed that leaves you few options.

 

[The Stig]

 

[Kutnupe14]

So, just who are the thugs? Looks like the Russians and their Cossack dogs are. Also of interest is Washington's words from yesterday.
BBC News - Pro-Ukraine activists beaten up in Crimea



With the door to diplomacy closed that leaves you few options.

I always fail at remembering if it's the Cossacks, Taters, or Cavity Creeps that hate the Russians.

 

[firehawk1]

Maybe they just don't want to start a war if they don't have to.

Words to remember if The United States is ever invaded.

REALLY... a country that has been invaded should just bend over and spread their cheeks?

 

[Shadow8088]

Words to remember if The United States is ever invaded.

REALLY... a country that has been invaded should just bend over and spread their cheeks?

If the US is ever invaded, they better know how to handle the 80-100million militia that shows up to push them back...