Dallas Protest, Shots Fired

[printcraft]

May have a legitimate reason to kick in the door. These are the conversations we need to have as a country.

 

[miguel]

Type and talk about it all you want, you can't go to someone's house and kick in/on their front door and not expect something bad to happen to you.

Go home and kick in your own door if you are "frustrated". The mentality that someone might be "frustrated" and kick in/on a complete stranger's front door is the problem!

 

[Kutnupe14]

Ok fine, I admittedly said it might have been a bad example and was going off the top of my head. I think I listed some others....

-Guy shot in Wal-Mart with the pellet gun?
-Guy shot at the gas station while getting his I'd?

 

[printcraft]

Ok fine, I admittedly said it might have been a bad example and was going off the top of my head. I think I listed some others....

-Guy shot in Wal-Mart with the pellet gun?
-Guy shot at the gas station while getting his I'd?

I.D. guy was a clear ****up on the cops part 90%. Guy shouldn't have dove back in his truck either though. Common sense is not common.

 

[Kutnupe14]

I.D. guy was a clear ****up on the cops part 90%. Guy shouldn't have dove back in his truck either though. Common sense is not common.

I've had that done to me half a million times. No dead people yet. Thankfully. But thanks for the response.

 

[Kutnupe14]

Anybody else want to address the guy shot in Walmart?

 

[jamil]

I don't see it that way at all, and I dislike the comparison. Black on Black crime, most often involves criminals, does it not? What ability do the law-abiding have in preventing criminals from committing crimes, on a national scale? As gun owners, we all know the answer to this question, as when crime and guns come up, and those that seek to disarm us reference it, we use the same excuse. So I think it's fair to completely reject the notion.
Are black criminals and police officers similar? Of course not. One is bound to respect life, serve honorably, and protect...the other has no such obligation. So when it appears, that those who we look to for help and defense, are doing the opposite, and hurting law-abiding citizens, it's much more of a concern than if your random criminal doing the same.

Think back to Bisard... He's not the first guy to be drunk, run over, and kill someone. Not by a longshot, but due to his position, it garnered a TON of media attention. Now let's say that every few months, a cop ran over and killed a motorcyclist, do you think that the bike riding public wouldn't start to be alarmed, and start to wonder if it's intentional?

This goes to what I said earlier somewhere. We're looking at this from two completely different world views. I see the comparison as completely relevant according to the things I value, and my understanding of the facts. When I read your reply, the thoughts going through my head were exactly what GFGT addressed. Building up to that:

If black lives matter, what tends to cause lives to end? Let's address violent ends since that's the subject.

1) Being shot by the police justifiably.

2) Being shot by the police unjustifiably.

3) Being shot by other blacks.

What's the greatest cause of the three? Obviously #3. What can they do about it? Well, let's look at causes and be honest about solutions. What causes them to kill each other? Can you not see some things that the Black community could do differently to help reduce black on black violence? Is there anything that families can do to keep their kids out of trouble? If you think the answer is "yes" to either of those questions, then you already know what kinds of things BLM could work to solve. But if your answer is 'no' to either of those questions, there is no bridge that can cross that gap in differences in our world views. And that would be part of the problem.

So let's talk about #1 and #2. BLM focuses exclusively on the conflation of the two. Because of that, it's hard to address the two things separately. And if we could address the two things separately, the solutions to #1 would be very similar to the solution to #3. So that leaves us with discussing #2.

What kind of problem is #2? Racism? Racial bias? Stereotyping? Authoritarian attitudes? Probably some of each. What kind of problem is that? Systemic? Individual actor? What is BLM's strategy to solve any of those problems? Okay, they organized. What are they doing? Commandeering microphones at Bernie Sanders rallies? Every I see a BLM representative with a microphone, they seem to be mostly trying to get attention.

Okay, they protest. That's something. But what does protesting address? Systemic causes. Institutional causes. How much of #2 is systemic? How much is institutional? How much is individual?

From my perspective it appears to me that the shootings you listed in the post quoted below (which I'll get around to) is an issue with individuals. I don't police forces as systemically racist. What is BLM going to do about individuals? How is protesting going to fix that? Is that going to cause individuals who are racist, or racially biased, or who stereotype, to stop doing those things?

That leads me to another point. Can Black people, BLM or any other Black organization or person even fix problems in white culture? Probably no more than White people can fix problems in Black culture. The solution to individual prejudice is very similar to the solution to Black on Black crime, and that is what GFGT said. It begins at home. The family. The accountability within the culture.

Guy shot in the back running away, guy shot at a gas station getting his ID, guy getting choked out for selling cigarettes, legal carrier shot while retrieving his ID, guy shot standing in a apartment stairwell, guy shot in his apartment because he wouldn't open a door for a welfare check, guy shot 41 time, 19 hits, guy shot when his pill bottle is mistaken for a gun, guy shot carrying a pellet gun in Wal-Mart, woman shot as she opened door for police because they said she had a gun (she didn't), football player shot after knocking on door after an accident asking for help, man shot by police as he fled from the store he worked at which had been robbed, man run over by police car as he fled for stealing paving stones, autistic man approaches police reaches into his waistband shot because they thought he was reaching for a gun, man shot face down at a subway station, man shot face down during a drug apprehension, man shot after he startled officer when he opened a rooftop door.....and the list goes on and on and on.

Given the way the media seizes upon these types of instances, and how they are played over and over, how can one not wonder? I think, given the small sample of instances I listed above, it's completely acceptable to ask "are white people treated the same way?"

I just heard on the news some statistics that Black and Hispanic cops shoot more black people than White cops do. More whites are shot by cops than blacks, but blacks are disproportionately shot more. Why? That should be the question BLM asks, and they need to be willing to find unbiased answers. And they need to explore the possibility that they're not all simply because the person is Black.

You listed a lot of unjustified shootings of black people. There are more cops shooting white people, but those don't make the news. Those shootings are as mundane as Black on Black crime, and we never hear about the people behind those statistics. I can't even think of a time when an unjustified shooting of a white person has made the national news with wall to wall coverage. Does that mean it doesn't happen? No. It just means it's not news when it happens.

I brought up black on black crime, specifically murders, after it was essentially asked why are black people concerned about police shooting them, THE POLICE, when they don't seem to be all that concerned about other black criminals shooting them. On its face, that seems like an incredibly ridiculous and intellectually dishonest question. "Why would people have issue with those that uphold the law shooting them, when those who ignore the law do it too?" I mean can some one really be so out of touch to not understand the difference?
You move the conversation back a little, and cite upbringing, which made me assume possibly incorrectly, that the unsavory types of people you listed are typically those killed by LE, in most of the stories we see get national media attention. I then listed a sample of some of those instances, where a good portion of those killed weren't doing anything illegal.

It's not incredibly ridiculous to me. There is no intellectual dishonesty in asking that. And your rephrasing of my question is completely inaccurate. My question in no way distills to that. And please accept that my tone isn't angry. We're just having a discussion here. But I am going to use some pointed language. I think it's intellectually dishonest to call yourselves Black Lives Matter, when you don't do anything to address the causes of the largest source of violent deaths in Blacks. Their name, to me, sounds racist in itself, because it implies that only Black lives matter. That name along with their rhetoric, is not going to change the individual police officers who end up unjustifiably shooting a Black person.

"Dead isn't dead," the why and who did it, are very important.

Dead is dead, but the why and who did it are the crux of the whole issue. I want cops to stop shooting innocent people of any race, and I want them to use the force necessary to keep themselves and the public safe, without regard to race. I think race has become an unrealistically large part of the issue, and the problem is exacerbated by BLM rather than helping.

 

[jamil]

Anybody else want to address the guy shot in Walmart?

I'd be happy to. What does this refer to?

 

[SheepDog4Life]

There's some noteworthy things you got wrong, or didn't mention, about the above. Yes the football player did kick the door. What you didn't mention, is that the resident, actually opened the door, and upon seeing the man, she quickly closed it. So it begs the question, if he was trying to force entry, why didn't he do so when the door was initially opened? Was his kicking of the door an attempt to gain entry or frustration?

As for attempting to tackle, that's also open to debate, as the investigation uncovered that he was shot 4 times before he fell on the shooting officer.

This article sums up story pretty well.
Jonathan Ferrell shooting: How Charlotte avoided Ferguson?s fate.

but perhaps that is a bad example, I was going off the top of my head.

I was going off the top of my head as well, lol! IIRC, her husband worked shift work, and she opened the door at, again IIRC, 1:30 am thinking it was him. It wasn't, it was a strange man, so she shut the door immediately. Me, I would have knocked politely, apologized for startling her, could she call a phone number for me, etc. This is just speculation on my part, trying to figure out why this happened, but I cannot escape some version of "f***ing white people" was involved in his frustration at that point. Maybe she would have called the police anyhow just based upon a black man knocking on her door, but HIS reaction, trying to kick in the door, meant we'll never know.

And, the first time I saw the video (and everytime since), I saw the equivalent of a corner back, touching his thigh pads, walking into position just before the snap.

(btw, in the NY stairwell case, the verdict was exactly right, IMO, the sentence of probation, was appalling)

and I can appreciate that a million time over than cute comments of dismissal.

Reaching a mutual understanding is the only way, IMO.

I read a book years back, It's the Little Things: Everyday Interactions That Anger, Annoy, and Divide the Races by Lena Williams. I would recommend it to anyone who's white and perplexed by people of color. Helped me understand a few things, including the OJ verdict, which I never had previously understood... it didn't cause me to agree, but at least I understood.

 

[Kutnupe14]

I'd be happy to. What does this refer to?

WARNING GRAPHIC: Man with BB gun shot by cops in Walmart | Daily Mail Online

 

[Rookie]

Anybody else want to address the guy shot in Walmart?

Winner of the Darwin award.

 

[KG1]

I, for one, am trying to understand. That is the only way to make progress.

Perhaps, as a white guy, it's not possible to understand from a person of color's perspective.

But, this is too important not to try.

While there is merit in your point you obviously have not been harangued enough to the point of tuning out.

 

[ArcadiaGP]

Americans urged to 'buy a gun, get trained, carry it always' | Washington Examiner

 

[DoggyDaddy]

So you said it's implied by Blacks that they are being terrorized by police, as well as being terrorized by other people. If they have that belief, why would they want any interaction with police, at all? Or do you think black people don't believe they are being terrorized by police?

No, I'm saying that the police aren't the ones doing the terrorizing. But they get the blame, even when they are the ones going after the ones that are truly doing the terrorizing.

 

[cbhausen]

Just a theory on my part but I think all the hate for the police gineed up by POTUS, BLM, MSN, YouTube, Facebook, etc. have all led to more defiant behavior by subjects when stopped. This in turn leads to escalated confrontations which sometimes result in police action shootings (some justified, others not).

Maybe LEO can share their observations here. Are subjects more confrontational since this "war on cops" escalated? Do you see the "**** the police" attitude making your stops more dangerous for you and those you interact with?

 

[jamil]

WARNING GRAPHIC: Man with BB gun shot by cops in Walmart | Daily Mail Online

Why do you think the guy flinging around the bb gun got shot. Presumably you wanted them charged? What would you charge them with? What evidence meets the burden for a guilty verdict? There really isn't anything else I can add. Is there some element of race involved? Well, it looks like he's black. That by itself isn't evidence of a racial motive for shootout the guy.

 

[Kutnupe14]

Why do you think the guy flinging around the bb gun got shot. Presumably you wanted them charged? What would you charge them with? What evidence meets the burden for a guilty verdict? There really isn't anything else I can add. Is there some element of race involved? Well, it looks like he's black. That by itself isn't evidence of a racial motive for shootout the guy.

I didn't say anything about anyone being charged. Where's the threat in that situation? Who's in danger? Did it appear that the victim was even aware of law enforcement's presence before being shot? Those things aren't concerning to you?

Oh, the BB gun was sold by Wal-Mart, the victim picked it up, in case you were thinking it was his

 

[SheepDog4Life]

While there is merit in your point you obviously have not been harangued enough to the point of tuning out.

I've been on forums of some sort or another since back in the FidoNet dial-up days. Cried tears of joy when I finally upgraded to a 9600 baud modem. Being pro-2A, pro-USA, and conservative/libertarian meant always being in the minority as I avoided echo-chambers... so I've got the tee-shirt in multiple colors and sizes.

I've always found the key to be avoiding (ignoring) the obvious troll and not attempting to "out-troll" them... not saying I've always been successful, lol, just that I'm old enough to know reasoned discussion and debate, versus the other cr@p and pot shots, when I see it.

 

[jamil]

I didn't say anything about anyone being charged. Where's the threat in that situation? Who's in danger? Did it appear that the victim was even aware of law enforcement's presence before being shot? Those things aren't concerning to you?

Actually it was concerning, but I'm not a cop and I don't really know what the protocols are when approaching a guy flinging around what appears to be a firearm. And, we're discussing race and not jackbootiness.

 

[SheepDog4Life]

Why do you think the guy flinging around the bb gun got shot. Presumably you wanted them charged? What would you charge them with? What evidence meets the burden for a guilty verdict? There really isn't anything else I can add. Is there some element of race involved? Well, it looks like he's black. That by itself isn't evidence of a racial motive for shootout the guy.

I didn't say anything about anyone being charged. Where's the threat in that situation? Who's in danger? Did it appear that the victim was even aware of law enforcement's presence before being shot? Those things aren't concerning to you?

Oh, the BB gun was sold by Wal-Mart, the victim picked it up, in case you were thinking it was his

Well, I would. The man was shot carrying a bb gun in Walmart and had not been observed by police menacing anyone. No reports of shots fired. He was in the corner of the store, cornered. The cop "rambo'ed" in and shot a man who wasn't even (or just barely) looking at him. At the very least, negligent homicide.

Ditto for Tamir Rice, though possibly more the driver than the shooter.

Decisions have consequences when you carry a gun. Make a negligent decision and kill an innocent person, there need to be consequences. In neither situation did the deceased portray their bb gun as a real weapon, unlike say, a robber doing the same thing in a hold up, or the (white) guy who drew a pellet handgun while police were escorting him out of a fast food joint. In Walmart and Rice, the police "created" the situation and didn't need to.

Then, you have the MacDonald case. Murder 2 or manslaughter depending upon Illinois law. Fire and prosecute every officer who gave a false sworn statement. It's one thing to give another cop a professional curtsy on a speeding ticket, another entirely to close ranks with a murderer.

Then, you have NYC with a negligent discharge where the jury does it's duty and the judge let's the cop walk with probation. Not to mention a SWAT team going/given the wrong address and executing a homeowner with a golf club. Someone f***'ed up royally, someone died, and it was as foreseeable as a lazy finger on the trigger of a loaded gun. Isn't that at least involuntary manslaughter?